Is this true about recommendation letters?

[econsgirl]

1) Get a professor who will write you an EXCELLENT letter, but one who has few contacts in the schools you're applying to.

 

2) Get a professor who will write you a DECENT letter, but one who has connections in the schools you are applying to.

 

Is it true that 2>>>1?

[notacolour]

I doubt it. If someone isn't willing to push you very hard, he isn't going to take advantage of those connections. And whether people know him very well won't matter, since he's not that big on you.

 

Plus, most people's recommenders won't have any connections to the schools where they apply, so being in the same boat doesn't put you at some great disadvantage.

[econsgirl]

if my professor has no connections, then does it matter whether he is from a very very good school or in a less known school?

[Ancalagon The Black]

I reckon it matters. For us international students of course, LORs are practically discounted unless the writer is from a famed US school.

[econsgirl]

I reckon it matters. For us international students of course, LORs are practically discounted unless the writer is from a famed US school.

 

Famed US school meaning top 10 econs PHD schools?

[TruDog]

I reckon it matters. For us international students of course, LORs are practically discounted unless the writer is from a famed US school.

 

And the same is true for American writers from lesser-known US schools. Top 30 schools always send a good signal to adcoms.

[the_asker]

What if my letter writer fails to indicate that he is from a top US school? Would the adcoms have any way of knowing?

[Ancalagon The Black]

econsgirl:

 

Yes, or if, say the LOR writer is from a famous international school (say) - IIT, IIM, IISC, ISI, Delhi School etc.

 

Also, there are many international students who write their own LORs simply because their professors are either:

 

1. Lazy and delegate the task.

2. Well meaning but still want to push the student forward.

 

This is a perennial problem simply because:

 

1. Professors don't use email and cannot (or will not) use online services leading to a lot of logistical problems.

2. They will simply not bother with so many people wanting to send LORs. (imagine 400 people every year each applying to 10-15 schools)

 

The problem exists in the Indian subcontinent, in South Asia, South East Asia and I have heard, Africa and parts of Latin America.

 

This is mainly because LORs are not required for admission in most of these places. (although places like Singapore and South Korea have started the trend)

 

For instance in India, admissions to any of the top institutes depends on the outcome of one entrance test on one day. This is why the US system of education is very attractive for many students because it checks all the aspects of your application.

 

Although, the drawback is that LORs from unknown foreign authors as will be the case in 99% of applications will be discounted. This leads to greater competition, a little unfairness but I think one which is heavily justified.

 

I think there was this case in NJIT or NYU (cannot remember which) which came out in the Times of India where an Indian student and a Chinese student where caught using wrong LOR information.

 

Moral of story: If you lie, make sure you have a good memory ... lol ... :D

 

Ok. End of Rant. I am a bit frustrated about my LORs going to be discounted although I didn't write them (though I saw them)

 

TruDog:

 

I had heard that this was an existing phenomenon. What about professors with degrees from good schools outside the top 30. Is that a plus or a minus or does it depend on the professor and how well known he is in his field?

[Ancalagon The Black]

the_asker:

 

I always ask my LOR writers to include a brief biography of themselves at the bottom of the page as well as contact information (might be redundant) and a list of courses taught (with brief appraisals)

 

I don't know whether such a request can be made in the US or not but I am friendly enough with my professors to suggest such a thing.

 

Also, if there are any present graduate students here or international students here in any discipline, just how are LOR writers authority validated?

 

This is because most of the writers in India do not have email addresses from the schools (as in .edu or .org) but use hotmail or yahoo. UMD told me that that is not a problem. Do they call up a professor if the student is admitted?

 

Anyone got first hand experience with that?

[kanishka]

the_asker:

 

This is because most of the writers in India do not have email addresses from the schools (as in .edu or .org) but use hotmail or yahoo. UMD told me that that is not a problem. Do they call up a professor if the student is admitted?

 

Anyone got first hand experience with that?

 

Most self respecting schools have websites that work, where faculty listings are put up, even for those whose faculty are still in the dark ages.

 

If you are admitted, you will be contacted.

[Ancalagon The Black]

kanishka:

 

Good point, I come from Jadavpur University (Welcome to Jadavpur University website) but neither is the website well maintained nor do any of my faculty have (though they are officially supposed to) .edu email addresses... nor are the faculty listings upto date or even recent. :(

 

Although my professor did he say that he has received calls before from schools whose students have been updated.

[TruDog]

TruDog:

 

I had heard that this was an existing phenomenon. What about professors with degrees from good schools outside the top 30. Is that a plus or a minus or does it depend on the professor and how well known he is in his field?

 

It depends on how well known the professor is, of course. But ceterus paribus, a top 30 school is a good signal.

[Golden Rule]

1) Get a professor who will write you an EXCELLENT letter, but one who has few contacts in the schools you're applying to.

2) Get a professor who will write you a DECENT letter, but one who has connections in the schools you are applying to.

Is it true that 2>>>1?

I think it depends on specifics that you've omitted. So let me narrow it down a bit. For starters, i'll assume you're interested in getting into a top 10-20 school or so.

 

A common situation might be professor 1 is junior faculty, from a decent school, but not well known, and professor 2 is tenured, so I'll go with that. Usually that's the case, and the lesser-known prof has a shorter track record of knowing students. Usually older profs can compare current students to past students who have gotten into top programs, and that's one reason why they're more valuable.

 

Now what is excellent vs. decent? Let's assume excellent means you did well in the profs class and RAd for the prof, and you were the best student/RA this prof has ever had in a 5-year career. Let's say for prof 2 you just took a class with the prof.

 

I think the key question is, can prof 2 say ANYTHING at all about you outside the classroom? If all the prof can say is you got in A in class that all problem sets and exams, then I totally disagree with the orginal question. A LOR that says nothing more than that is not too helpful for most top schools (I cite Berkeley admissions criteria for a reference) -- the transcript has this info already. If the prof can say something, like you were an enthusiastic attender of office hours and discussed unique, feasible research, (perhaps this class required a term paper you did well on), then I'd say prof 2's LOR is more valuable -- though I'd also add it's not an either/or, the two LORs actually complement each other well I'd say.

[savingtheplanet]

A mediocre letter will never get you in to a top-30 type department (I dont know much about lower-ranked departments). So definitely pick a strong letter over a modest one, even if the former comes with a promise of contacting faculty personally. Friends/acquaintances on the admission committee here at Michigan have told me that having personal contact usually only helps you as a tie-breaker.

 

However, given the contents of your previous thread, I reiterate: a very strong letter from an anthro professor will count for pretty much nothing. I have been told by people on the adcom that they (those particular individuals, not adcoms as a rule) would not even read such a letter. So only use the letter from your comparative culture prof if you have nothing else available.

[buckykatt]

However, given the contents of your previous thread, I reiterate: a very strong letter from an anthro professor will count for pretty much nothing. I have been told by people on the adcom that they (those particular individuals, not adcoms as a rule) would not even read such a letter. So only use the letter from your comparative culture prof if you have nothing else available.

 

I'm sure this is true is general, but there might be a few exceptions, e.g. Robert Boyd. The professor in question ought to be able to advise you on that, though.

[fp3690]

 

Yes, or if, say the LOR writer is from a famous international school (say) - IIT, IIM, IISC, ISI, Delhi School etc.

 

 

You know, there are famous international schools outside of India...

[Ancalagon The Black]

fp3690:

 

No, No, obviously there are dozens of schools way better than Indian schools. What I meant to say was that either the LOR writer must come from a good US school or a recognized international school and hence the example.

[apropos]

1) Get a professor who will write you an EXCELLENT letter, but one who has few contacts in the schools you're applying to.

 

2) Get a professor who will write you a DECENT letter, but one who has connections in the schools you are applying to.

 

Is it true that 2>>>1?

 

First point: What are you exactly asking here? Whether 1) or 2) is better from the point of view of the adcoms? I don't think that you might necessarily get a correct answer from a board full of graduate school applicants. We're not adcoms. Finds someone who served on an adcom and ask this question.

 

Second: In my personal opinion a strong letter of recommendation from any professor of economics or a related field is better than a lukewarm letter from a top professor. After all who wants to see another letter that says only that such and such student did sufficiently well in my class and so I think she is ok to go to grad school? (except for third tier schools where they probably rarely have ANY applicants with a LOR from a top professor).

[agarwaen.mormegil]

Personally, i find the idea of an LOR written by a professor who's not from a US grad school (forget Top 30) being ignored by the adcom reprehensible. Let's say, for example, the LOR writer is a very experienced and respected academician teaching for a long time in a reputed (as reputation goes domestically) Indian university/college. He has a phd from a reputed Indian school and has done loads of research all over the years.

 

So does that mean, the experience and opinion of the LOR writer doesn't count a dime? How many people go to US for a phd anyway? That too from a 3rd World nation? And i'm talking of times 20 to 30 years back when the middle class in India/South Asia and such regions were not as well-off as they are now nor were the channels to get a US grad education so easily approachable (strict foreign exchange laws, information unavailability and so on....they didnt have websites and TM forums to discuss which schools were good for applied micro, did they?)

 

Sure, the adcoms are risk averse. And LOR from a Top 30'er is a sure shot way to verify the credential and weight of the letter and the writer. But discounting a very well-written letter from a professor who hasn't been to a US grad school reeks of prejudice.

 

Although i believe such letters, when extremely well written are not as much discounted as they are being said here. Wishful thinking maybe? :hmm:

[Ancalagon The Black]

mormy:

 

Wishful thinking indeed !! Those who went to the US then stayed back in the US. For instance my uncles on the adcom of one of the departments of UWM. He was the one who told me about the discount factor. Basically a LOR from say the other country equivalent of IIT/IIM/ISI/IISC would be cool.

 

Or unless Amartya Sen personally endorsed your LORs !! :D

[natvanhat]

My profile is not that strong, especially relative to many of the people lurking on these forums. That said, I have taken a lot of math and done research with one of the faculty members at my university for the past two years.

 

I know for a fact that the guy I've done research for has connections at one of the top 30 schools I applied to. He's a full professor with a PhD from Penn and he wrote me a very strong letter.

 

This is the interesting part. A few weeks ago, I called to ask a general application question at this particular program and the administrative assistant was familiar with me and my application (though at the time it wasn't complete). She knew me by name. Maybe I read too much into it, but it sure seemed like she was on the look out for my app. Considering this particular school gets 600+ apps, I found that encouraging though it will likely turn out to be wishful thinking on my part.

[buckykatt]

That *is* encouraging, though I certainly wouldn't jump to any conclusions.

 

In case this hasn't occurred to you, it might mean that he mentioned you to the secretary in question. Making friends with the secretaries is the key to success anywhere, and perhaps doubly-so in academia. A decade after leaving grad school, I still remember the department secretary (and vice versa). I can't say the same about all the professors.

[econsgirl]

Most self respecting schools have websites that work, where faculty listings are put up, even for those whose faculty are still in the dark ages.

 

If you are admitted, you will be contacted.

 

 

Hey Kanishka, I have seen your application profile in one of the other pages, and I have to say grade-wise, research-wise, it does look like some of those who applied and got into top schools. However, the school that you managed to get into was not in the Top 10 US schools. Do you think this is due to a HUGE bias in that we're international students (even if you are from the TOP school in India)? Or recommendation letters? Or some other reasons?

[Ancalagon The Black]

kanishka:

 

Are you from Delhi School of Economics?

[kanishka]

Hey Kanishka, I have seen your application profile in one of the other pages, and I have to say grade-wise, research-wise, it does look like some of those who applied and got into top schools. However, the school that you managed to get into was not in the Top 10 US schools. Do you think this is due to a HUGE bias in that we're international students (even if you are from the TOP school in India)? Or recommendation letters? Or some other reasons?

 

*cough* Err Maryland AREC is considered a top department for resource economics, so I wouldn't say I didn't get in to a top department.

 

Look. I've known people who didn't have any research experience, who were just smart people period, and have made it into Stanford/Princeton based on letters written from lesser known faculty from my masters school.

 

Frankly, I wasn't the strongest candidate from my batch, the fact that I got into (what I consider anyway) a top department, is testament enough that if you're good and you work for it (literally) you will get what you want.

 

And for what it's worth I did receive an unfunded offer from U Minnesota. Perhaps you consider that top 10.

 

In any case, you should decide your school by the number of faculty doing things you like. Ratings like top 5 top 10 blah blah can be misleading. People here don't stress this enough, I believe its the most important determinant of how you'll like your program, of how motivated you will be and of how focussed you will be.