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The Big 4 (Queens, UWO, Toronto, UBC) Academic Placement Comparison!


Olm

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I am creating this thread to serve as a compare and contrast between the academic placement records of the "Big 4" Canadian schools. For those of us who want to be academics, this is of particular importance. :grad:

 

(in the "notable schools" field, I will note any top US or Canadian schools)

 

University of Toronto, placement 2002-2007:

U of T : Economics : Graduate Programs

notable schools: UBC twice in 2005

 

University of Western Ontario, academic placement 2003-2007:

http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/economics/grad/PLACEMENT2003-2007.pdf

notable schools: UPenn (!), Toronto

 

University of British Columbia, placement 2003-2007:

http://www.econ.ubc.ca/grads/phd_grads.pdf

notable schools: none

 

Queen's University, placement 1998-2007:

The Ph.D. Program in Economics at Queen's

notable schools: Toronto, Wisconsin-Madison, UCL

 

Using a past study (using 2003-2004 placements) about overall placement:

http://www.www.urch.com/forums/phd-economics/68010-ranking-economics-departments-worldwide-basis-phd-placement.html

rank #40: UWO

rank #42: UBC

rank #45: Queen's

rank #51: Toronto

 

Analysis: UWO bested the other Canadian schools in the study, but the ratings may have been highly skewed by the UPenn placement. Overall, the placement record of the Big 4 is quite similar.

 

I find this to be quite strange because the rankings of the four schools are quite far apart on the EconPhD ratings (2004):

rank #20: UBC

rank #36: Toronto

rank #61: Queen's

rank #103: UWO

 

Overall, I think the placements are similar enough that it shouldn't be a factor when choosing which of the Big 4 to attend. Other factors, such as program friendliness, funding, attrition, etc. should be examined closely when choosing between these programs.

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In terms of being a stepping stone for a PhD, they all place students in top schools on a regular basis (Harvard, Yale, MIT, Berkeley, etc). And since they take students from these schools quite often, the profs at those schools have other students to compare you to.
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I applied to nearly all of those schools, except for UWO whcih I here hasn't been as hot of a school lately.

 

Based on placements, friendliness, funding and faculty, I would say that Queen's is likely the best place in Canada to go as a Master's student. It's friendler than the University of Toronto (but where isn't?), to my understanding, they fund all of their Master's students 16K per year, and they have placements at all the top ten schools because a good portion of their faculty is from schools like Berkeley, Princeton, Stanford, Chicago and Yale.

 

Toronto has a very good reputation but I have heard that they aren't as friendly and they usually only fund doctoral stream students 13.5K per year which certainly does not go very far in Toronto compared to the 16K offered by Queen's in Kingston.

 

Western has lost a lot of faculty over the past few years and has really de-emphasised the need to even be an economics major for their Master's/PhD program. They also don't fund as much as Queen's. London is a pretty lively city though with a great music scene and I have heard taht the profs and students themselves are friendly.

 

UBC is probably the best school based on reputation academcially and as far as how friendly and beautiful the campus is. The only real problem is that it is in Vancouver which is expensive to live in and they don't fund everyone which can make it expensive to go there. Vancouver is probably the best place to live for doing your Master's but unless you are one of the top students applying to UBC you will likely need external funding to be able to afford it.

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Great post Ethomso!

 

I agree 100% about Toronto... for their MAs, it's sink or swim. Then again they don't even have a thesis requirement, one of the only ones in Canada that don't have it.

 

I haven't heard about UWO losing a lot of people. Hum. Interesting information. And their de-emphasis on econ undergrads is warranted IMHO, because the only useful pure econ courses at that level is the micro sequence.

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In terms of being a stepping stone for a PhD, they all place students in top schools on a regular basis (Harvard, Yale, MIT, Berkeley, etc). And since they take students from these schools quite often, the profs at those schools have other students to compare you to.

I think your second point is dead on, but as regards the first - I should point out that for UBC's MA, neither my year nor the year before me placed anyone in a top 9 school. My UBC year's best admits outside of Canada were U Mich, UCLA, LSE (unfunded), and Rochester, the year before was similar I believe. Based on what I've heard, I think Queen's MA didn't have any top 15 admits for the past 2 years; I haven't heard of any top 9 placements from U of T but wouldn't necessarily know.

 

As for placements of PhDs you listed - I find it odd that Queen's doesn't have a full list; they placed students at UWisc-Madison and UCL a couple year back. I think you're right that all of these schools have been placing similarly in recent history. By the time you have to decide where to go you'll get to see this year's placements too.

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Here are my 2 cents:

 

First and foremost, forget about econphd's ranking. It has nothing to do with phd/ma training & placements, and is quite misleading. I would use this ranking to a very limited extent if I had to choose among the 4.

 

For PhD: All 4 are good. Period. All have good economists who are doing top-notch research. As Olm said, it really comes down to personal preferences. I do not believe there are any major differences/concerns from the academic aspect. If you're good, coming out of either of the 4, you'll do well. They're all equivalent in terms of placement/training. Bottom line: funding, location, special-interests (ie: some1 specific you'd like to work with), personal issues (family, friends, etc.) - those are the main factors.

 

For MA: Again, all 4 are good; training level is equivalent (especially for industry). For PhD, if you're good, and you have a strong background, you'll have good options coming out of either of the 4. Nonetheless - in my view there are some differences in terms of MA placements to PhD. I haven't seen UBC placing anyone in top places (perhaps years back, but not recently) so I am not sure why places like 'MIT, Harvard, etc.' were mentioned in previous discussions; that's far from reality as it seems. With UoT it's pretty similar, only I did see a few (very few) placements in top places in recent years (as opposed to none at UBC). With UWO & Queen's it's a bit different; they seem to do a better job (perhaps even much better) in that sense. Western placed students at yale & Upenn in the last 3 years (only a few, but given that they have an entering class of around 15, with 12 of them staying at Western, that's not bad). And Queen's, well - that's the only school that I've really seen sending students to all the top places, and really quite often (I've seen ppl in Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, Chicago...). Last year I know they sent some1 to Harvard (so it's not true that for the past 2 years there haven't been a top 15 placement).

Bottom line: All 4 are good; meaning, if you're at one either of them and you're good, you'll do well and you will have options for sure. However, I would put Queen's & UWO above the rest in terms of MA placement to PhD. In terms of being prepared to go to industry, I don't think there's any difference between the 4 (perhaps UoT would be preferred, but only because of its location...).

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Great post Ethomso!

 

I haven't heard about UWO losing a lot of people. Hum. Interesting information. And their de-emphasis on econ undergrads is warranted IMHO, because the only useful pure econ courses at that level is the micro sequence.

 

That info was from a prof who got his PhD from Western and still knows faculty there, maybe he is a little bitter :p I think the reason that UWO has de-emphasised economics undergrad is because, in Canada at least, universities woefully underprepare students for the math at graduate level economics. In my fourth year micro course some students were asking what an integral was!

 

For most undergraduate degree programs in Canada, one only requires one to two math courses to graduate with a degree in Economics. Considering the mathematical rigor of graduate economics it isn't to surprising to hear that they are de-emphasisng economics students.

 

That being said I would be worried that at UWO the students themselves might be unfamiliar with some of the current issues in economics considering that UWO states themselves that they will accept students with no economics background. Also, it make me suspect that UWO might be shifting focus away from teaching how to solve real world economics problems to mathematical abstraction beyond practical use.

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That reminds me. According to the UBC website, it is actually suggested that you don't write a thesis unless you contact a prof well in advance of when you start studying.

 

M.A. Program in Economics

 

True, but you still have to write a "research paper", which I am guessing is the length of what other schools call a "thesis" for their MA programs.

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I couldn't agree more on this.

 

I believe you can do economics here in two ways: the quant way and the non-quant way. Most people who do it the quant way, would likely double major in both Economics and Mathematics. The people who don't do it the quant way (and incidentally, also happens to be the slackers of the faculty) would end up taking courses like Women and Economics (OK, nothing related to being sexist; its just a 3xx level course that teaches 1xx level microecon, at least from what I heard), Economic History of Canada (sounds more like a history course than anything), etc.

 

Hence, this begs the question: What's the value of having a BA Economics on your CV if you don't have any math courses to back it up? Another question would be, is the situation similar in the US and/or Europe?

 

For most undergraduate degree programs in Canada, one only requires one to two math courses to graduate with a degree in Economics. Considering the mathematical rigor of graduate economics it isn't to surprising to hear that they are de-emphasisng economics students.

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I believe you can do economics here in two ways: the quant way and the non-quant way. Most people who do it the quant way, would likely double major in both Economics and Mathematics. The people who don't do it the quant way (and incidentally, also happens to be the slackers of the faculty) would end up taking courses like Women and Economics (OK, nothing related to being sexist; its just a 3xx level course that teaches 1xx level microecon, at least from what I heard), Economic History of Canada (sounds more like a history course than anything), etc.

 

I do not agree... you need not mathematical super intelligence to become good economist...

The Scientific Illusion in Empirical Macroeconomics

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Hence, this begs the question: What's the value of having a BA Economics on your CV if you don't have any math courses to back it up? Another question would be, is the situation similar in the US and/or Europe?

 

Well, at my third world country there are really few places where you can major in Econ. I imagine there are no more than 5 or 6 places. The rest are all Business majors with hints of Econ.

 

However, at the University where I studied (which is really good, at least for latin american standards), this is the bare minumum math and stats you have to pass in order to major in Economics or Business:

 

Calculus I

Calculus II

Algebra I

Linear Algebra (now replaced by Calculus III)

Optimization Methods

Statistical Probability

Statistical Inference

Econometrics I

 

To get a professional degree in Economics (5th year), you have to add Econometric Theory I and Mathematical Economics (a.k.a., Dynamic Optimization) to this lot.

 

When I lectured a Math camp for grad students arriving from other Latin American countries to our univ., I was stunned to see that all of them who were Economists (or Econ majors) didn't have a clue of Math. :eek: I began teaching functions, and they had difficulties with ratios and decimal numbers. How was I supposed to teach them differentiation and matrix algebra, let alone Hamiltionians? :(

 

Most of those ultimately failed to stay on the program, and we had the biggest attrition rate in history. :yuck:

 

So, the major in your CV matters as long as it reflects correctly your Math qualifications. IMHO, if you don't know enough math, you'll be doomed. :(

 

Cheers,

AT

 

PS: My 200th post! Let's celebrate with an admit......pleeeeeaze? :blush:

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I applied to nearly all of those schools, except for UWO whcih I here hasn't been as hot of a school lately.

 

Based on placements, friendliness, funding and faculty, I would say that Queen's is likely the best place in Canada to go as a Master's student. It's friendler than the University of Toronto (but where isn't?), to my understanding, they fund all of their Master's students 16K per year, and they have placements at all the top ten schools because a good portion of their faculty is from schools like Berkeley, Princeton, Stanford, Chicago and Yale.

 

Toronto has a very good reputation but I have heard that they aren't as friendly and they usually only fund doctoral stream students 13.5K per year which certainly does not go very far in Toronto compared to the 16K offered by Queen's in Kingston.

 

Western has lost a lot of faculty over the past few years and has really de-emphasised the need to even be an economics major for their Master's/PhD program. They also don't fund as much as Queen's. London is a pretty lively city though with a great music scene and I have heard taht the profs and students themselves are friendly.

 

UBC is probably the best school based on reputation academcially and as far as how friendly and beautiful the campus is. The only real problem is that it is in Vancouver which is expensive to live in and they don't fund everyone which can make it expensive to go there. Vancouver is probably the best place to live for doing your Master's but unless you are one of the top students applying to UBC you will likely need external funding to be able to afford it.

thanks for the info, i will be giving the all to seldom used reputation for your post. I will thank you again if i get into queen's masters program with said 16k, by luck of the draw it's the one masters program in Canada I applied to and I may consider it over a PhD offer so I at least have the option of re-applying to top 10s instead of into top 30

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btw, is it possible that

 

1) since I have taken a Master/Phd Level of Microeconomics, Can I exempt it when I do the Master? And is it good to do so?

 

2) I found that at UBC, MA students are doing MA( Micro, Macro and Econometics ), so students request to take the Phd sequence? Is it goo to do so??

 

Thanks in advance for you input.

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Toronto has a very good reputation but I have heard that they aren't as friendly and they usually only fund doctoral stream students 13.5K per year which certainly does not go very far in Toronto compared to the 16K offered by Queen's in Kingston.

 

how accurate is your info? it's not always 16k for MAs - most of that $$ is in the form of TAship (approx.9k) and the rest are scholarship, which can vary from one applicant to another - from a couple thousand to many more. as for Toronto, although MA students get no funding, they get 10k from TAship (pretty much guaranteed, if you want it). so.. it would be more accurate to compare 10k UofT vs. 16k Queens (that is if Queens really offers 16k to all MA students - which I know isn't true)

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btw, is it possible that

 

1) since I have taken a Master/Phd Level of Microeconomics, Can I exempt it when I do the Master? And is it good to do so?

 

2) I found that at UBC, MA students are doing MA( Micro, Macro and Econometics ), so students request to take the Phd sequence? Is it goo to do so??

 

Thanks in advance for you input.

 

i dont know why you still want to do MA - you should really just go for PhD. btw i doubt you can be "exempted" from core theory courses - either you take MA or take PhD sequence.

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