Random Thoughts, Questions, Etcetera

[YoungEconomist]

1. Do you guys ever think about what you'll do if the Econ PhD thing doesn't work out? I think it's safe to say that (almost) everyone on this forum will get admits, however there's no gaurantee for TMers in regards to passing prelims (especially at some programs with high attrition rates). Don't get me wrong, because I definitely intend on passing prelims, it's just that I can't be certain (and I'm the type of person who likes to prepare for the worst case scenario and have some sorts of back up plans in these higher risk situations).

What do you think you'll do if you are kicked out of a PhD program (with an MA)?

I personally think I'd probably just hit the job market (with my MA) and try to get an economic consulting job. Maybe in the future I'd try to get an MBA to strengthen my resume. Of course, this all assumes that either another econ PhD program is not an option (or that I don't want to get into another econ PhD program for whatever reason).

2. Does anybody know if it's pretty difficult to get admitted at another PhD program if you are kicked out of your first one (for not passing prelims)? For example, if someone went to a program in the 20 - 30 range and didn't pass prelims, what range of Econ PhD programs could they likely wind up the second time around?

3. In case I'm kicked out of a program (with an MA) and decide to try for an MBA, do you guys think most TMers headed for an econ PhD could get into some highly competitive MBA programs? For example, if someone failed prelims at a program in the 20 - 30 range and had 3 - 5 years of solid work experience, could they likely get MBA admits at top 5 or 10 schools? If not, what range of MBA programs would they likely wind up at?

4. Am I correct that at most programs they allow the students who don't pass prelims to leave with a masters in economics? By the way, when I say "kicked out" above, I am assuming that you/me was "kicked out" but also given a masters in econ.

5. If anybody has any anecdotal evidence on the issues above, I'd definitely love to hear it.

[TruDog]

Originally Posted by YoungEconomist

4. Am I correct that at most programs they allow the students who don't pass prelims to leave with a masters in economics? By the way, when I say "kicked out" above, I am assuming that you/me was "kicked out" but also given a masters in econ.

At Wisconsin, that is correct. You do have to meet a certain grade point requirement, but that can easily be met through the second-year classes.

[YoungEconomist]

Originally Posted by TruDog

At Wisconsin, that is correct. You do have to meet a certain grade point requirement, but that can easily be met through the second-year classes.

Oh, so they let you take 2nd year courses too for the masters? That'd be nice, as I just thought they kicked you out as soon as you didn't pass prelims. It'd be awesome to still be allowed to take some second year courses, even if it only lead to a masters.

Hey TruDog, I hope this thread didn't getcha worried at all, if I'm not mistaken prelims are right around the corner for you.

[pevdoki1]

If I recall correctly, at WUSTL they give you an extra semester or two of funding even if you fail prelims. In other words, they offer you some time (and money) to get back on your feet. I would say that's quite nice of them

As for me, if the economics thing doesn't work out, I'll try to join a philosophy PhD program (so I can ponder questions of life). That or make lots of money.

[slightlyconfused1]

If I recall correctly, at WUSTL they give you an extra semester or two of funding even if you fail prelims. In other words, they offer you some time (and money) to get back on your feet. I would say that's quite nice of them

But arguably, of course, it's just an optimization on their part. Economics departments have found that it's optimal to weed out the lowest-scoring segment of their Ph.D classes, both because these students are not worth spending departmental resources for several years, and because the competition induced by courses and prelims motivates students to gain knowledge and techniques in the first year.

They don't weed out 50% of their classes -- compensating by admitting more students -- because the prospect of being thrown out of a Ph.D program is chilling, and makes most students much less likely to attend, forcing departments to cast a much wider (and lower-quality) net in the admissions cycle. Even after the lower half is thrown out, such a policy would probably result in a less skilled student body.

Thus there is a "magic" number between 0% and 50% that maximizes the quality of the retained students. Similarly, a certain level of generosity to students who fail out of the program is likely to boost overall student quality, by making the prospect of failing prelims somewhat less scary and increasing admissions yield. WUSTL's department might be generous out of good will, but it probably also recognizes that a few scare stories during flyouts from current Ph.D students, about how their best friends were thrown out and are now unemployed, would be enough to ruin most other efforts at recruitment.

[TruDog]

Originally Posted by YoungEconomist

Oh, so they let you take 2nd year courses too for the masters? That'd be nice, as I just thought they kicked you out as soon as you didn't pass prelims. It'd be awesome to still be allowed to take some second year courses, even if it only lead to a masters.

Hey TruDog, I hope this thread didn't getcha worried at all, if I'm not mistaken prelims are right around the corner for you.

You can finish up the spring semester of your second year here and then leave with a master's. (Typically, you meet the qualifications after three semesters.)

I just took one of my final exams this morning...two more to go and then two months of flatout studying before prelims in July.

[asianeconomist]

Originally Posted by TruDog

You can finish up the spring semester of your second year here and then leave with a master's. (Typically, you meet the qualifications after three semesters.)

I just took one of my final exams this morning...two more to go and then two months of flatout studying before prelims in July.

Go for it !

And if you're in need of inspiration, you can always refer to this:

Survivor - Eye Of The Tiger Lyrics

[YoungEconomist]

Come on TMers. How does pretty much nobody have any responses to this thread? Do you guys really just never think of failing your prelims?

[jeeves0923]

I'm hoping to do J.D./Ph.D so worst case scenario (after admission) I'd finish with a J.D./MA and be in pretty good shape for private sector, government, or possibly even a law school placement.

[Corneconomics]

I (at Cornell) did poorly in class (in no order, A-, B+, B, B- in intro macro and micro sequences-I spent a lot of time in Chicago with my girlfriend), and I was a bit immature in some of my actions with respect to the program. In the end, I failed the quals (I'm suspicious that failing was more of a comprehensive performance/behavior thing than based solely on my test performance, but either way). Cornell grades the quals Pass +, Pass, Pass-, Pass Masters, and Fail - pass masters means you fail, and I'm not sure if they give masters degrees based on it any more, but they did once. After getting my qual results, I didn't really hear anything from the department, and got myself work based on other connections (for instance, your undergraduate program might have news about lecturing positions, and professors might have consulting side jobs that you can work on).

The moral is, as an economist, you are a business onto yourself. You need to start making connections as an undergrad, and in your graduate programs. These connections can help ensure a "soft landing" (or favorable grading of your exams and eventually maybe a more glorious career). You should also practice writing using the higher powered tools you learn in graduate level courses (especially econometrics), and know that if you fail out, you may need to chop a first-year paper into a concise, clear writing sample to pass around with your resume (which should include statistics software experience).