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bheld · 05-21-2008, 04:46 PM

Hi everyone, I've been lurking here for a while and decided to post my profile to see what I can realistically expect as I attempt to get into a PhD program. There isn't exactly one area I'm interested in specializing in that I've found. I have interests in political economy and nontraditional/crossover applications in areas like education and public health, and what really draws me in is the extreme flexibility economists enjoy. It seems like an economist is taken seriously no matter what issue or field he or she weighs in on.

Right now I'm a junior high math teacher. I've been out of school for about a year now and got my degree in education with a business minor. I ended up with about a 3.37 gpa due to the typical goofing off freshman and sophomore years. I've had calc I and II (C+ and B+), linear algebra (A-), and a probability and statistics course (can't remember if I got a B+ or A-). I also took micro and macro but grades on those don't impress much since (like calc I) I took them during my freshman and sophomore years.

Yeah, I know, a math teacher that didn't even major in math. I went to a fairly decent state university but I have zero contacts right now in academia and, as you would expect, absolutely nothing in the way of research experience. With all this going against me you can be sure of the fact that I wouldn't be posting here unless I was really, really sure that I wanted to go into economics.

I'm taking the GRE next month which I'm expecting to do well on. I'm good with standardized tests and assuming I get a very good score, what are my options going to be as far as getting into a decent program?

My career goals lie in academia or the public sector. I'm not really interested in working in the corporate world, so if that's my only option I might have to look into what else I can do for the rest of my life.

I've already started contacting some offices to see if I can help out with some research but haven't heard anything on that front yet. Does anybody have any advice in that area? I'm assuming research experience would be a big boost to an otherwise weak application file. I'm also wondering if I could take something like the Math GRE to show that I can handle the upper-level math, since many admissions boards might be wary of a transcript that stops at linear algebra with otherwise basic courses like stats and finite math.

So to review, here's my status.

Out of school, basically no contacts
no research experience
pedestrian GPA, decent math grades
working independently on math skills
GRE being taken in 3 weeks

I know it doesn't look good on the surface, but I know I can do well in econ. Basically I need some advice on what to do to beef up this profile so that a decent program will give me a shot.

desimba · 05-21-2008, 05:37 PM

Math is without doubt the most critical part of the application package and your grades currently do not reflect very favorably on your math skills. Two potential ways of addressing that:
1) (As you suggested) Taking the math GRE, acing it, and also having some/ all of your recommenders talk about how you can handle the math that is thrown at you
2) Enrolling in a graduate program in math/ economics and scoring well in the program

Frankly I feel that with your current profile unless you were to go for a subsequent graduate education and do reasonably well there, it would be tough for you to get into an econ program within the top 50. Beyond that there might be schools which will be fine with a somewhat weaker application package but there is no way you can predict apriori which schools will be OK and you may either have to apply to a large number of schools to be sure of getting admitted/ reach out to some specific faculty members at some of these lower ranked schools and see which of them would be OK with your profile. My 2 cents!

bheld · 05-21-2008, 07:13 PM

Thanks for the feedback. I think if the GRE math subject test would be considered by admissions committees that's something I will definitely do. When you talk about enrolling in a math/econ graduate program are there any particular programs you'd recommend?

Any advice on getting connected with research or is that a pointless pursuit?

desimba · 05-21-2008, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bheld

When you talk about enrolling in a math/econ graduate program are there any particular programs you'd recommend?

I will defer to the views of some of the other folks on the boards who seem to have a much better idea on this topic. You should also look through some of the previous threads on the forum on this topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bheld

Any advice on getting connected with research or is that a pointless pursuit?

It is certainly not pointless. Research can and does have multiple benefits.
1) It convinces you that you want to get a PhD which is really important as you craft your overall strategy and the different elements of the package.
2) You have things to write about in your SOP.
3) You can get good recommendations from the folks you are engaged with on research provided you do a good job.

bheld · 05-21-2008, 07:24 PM

Yeah, I can definitely see the value of research. I'm a little bit worried about being able to find an opportunity though given my lack of background and being a year removed from school.

crutchboy3 · 05-21-2008, 07:57 PM

I think there is a bit of confusion about the math GRE. It is very advantageous to do well on the quantitative portion of the general GRE and this is something that you can expect to do with reasonable preparation. The math subject GRE on the other hand is a completely different animal. Doing very well on this test will certainly be a good sign to admission commitees, this is much easier said then done. The math subject GRE is meant to test students intending to attend math graduate schools, so the majority of test takers are mathematics majors and have done very well on all courses. This test is certainly not one where you can plan to do a bit of study and ace it as I know several students attending graduate school in mathematics at very good schools, and none of them came close to acing the test. If you can ace the test, then great, but in the end, I think your best course of action is to attempt to find some research positions, and at the same time take some more advanced mathematics and econ courses to improve your academic profile. The best option would probably be a master's degree before applying for PhD programs so that you can get both exposure to research and more advanced coursework.

YoungEconomist · 05-21-2008, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bheld

Right now I'm a junior high math teacher. I've been out of school for about a year now and got my degree in education with a business minor.

Which economic classes have you taken? What were your grades in them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bheld

I'm taking the GRE next month which I'm expecting to do well on. I'm good with standardized tests and assuming I get a very good score, what are my options going to be as far as getting into a decent program?

Definitely do well on the Quant part of the GRE. If you do poorly on the QGRE, many programs will not take you seriously. However, you must understand that a solid QGRE score is a neccessary condition for admission, but it is far from a sufficient condition. I'm sure many people with an 800 get turned down because the rest of their profile is lacking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bheld

My career goals lie in academia or the public sector. I'm not really interested in working in the corporate world, so if that's my only option I might have to look into what else I can do for the rest of my life.

There are definitely plenty of opportunities in academia and the public sector. Furthermore, if you're interested in working for think tanks, non-profits, or international organizations, then there are additional opportunities. The attractiveness of career opportunities however are related to where your PhD is from. That's not to say that it's impossible to get great jobs coming from low ranked schools, just that it's much easier to land great jobs coming from higher ranked programs. As a general rule, the higher ranked the program the more doors you will open.

In regards to academia, even the lowest ranked programs tend to place most of their graduates in academia. If you'd be happy teaching economics at relatively unknown colleges and universities, with high teaching loads, and don't mind having little control over location, then you can definitely find an academic job if you receive a PhD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bheld

I've already started contacting some offices to see if I can help out with some research but haven't heard anything on that front yet. Does anybody have any advice in that area? I'm assuming research experience would be a big boost to an otherwise weak application file.

Research experience will help. However, just like the QGRE it's generally to compliment an otherwise solid profile. Unless you do some great economic research (which is nearly impossible without a PhD, and even very difficult with a PhD), don't expect it to make a huge difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bheld

I'm also wondering if I could take something like the Math GRE to show that I can handle the upper-level math, since many admissions boards might be wary of a transcript that stops at linear algebra with otherwise basic courses like stats and finite math.

A good score on the Math GRE would definitely help a lot. However, I'm under the impression that the Math GRE is incredibly difficult. Even Math majors with superb grades struggle with that test. This shouldn't be suprising considering that the Math GRE is used to tell math addmissions commitees how qualified one is to pursue math at the grad school level.

Additional Comments/Advice:

In my opinion, you have a few main options.

1. Apply to low ranked PhD programs. I believe some of them may be willing to accept you with your current profile. However, you will likely not get fundking. Furthermore, surviving the first year and passing prelims may be very difficult given you've been out of school for awhile and have probably not been exposed to a lot of the economics and math that most 1st year students come in with.

2. Take classes as an undergrad/postbac for a while. If you're willing to go full time, you could probably knock out most (maybe even all) of the important courses within 1 year. If you are a part time student obviously it will take a little longer (potentially 2 or 3 years). The most useful classes will be in economics and math (and you will have to receive solid grades in these courses, meaning mostly A's). Important economics classes would be advanced micro (or maybe even grad micro), econometrics, potentially game theory, potentially advanced or grad macro. A good rule of thumb is to take the most quantitatively rigorous economics courses. Important math classes would be matrix algebra, multi-variable calculus, probability, stats, and real analysis. Once again, which classes you take will also be determined by how highly ranked the schools you're shooting for are. If you're happy at some lower ranked programs, you can probably skip some of the courses I've mentioned (however, even at lower ranked schools, it'd still be highly beneficial to have seen the material).

3. Enter an MA program in economics and take the undergrad math courses listed above in your free time. Once again, it's important to do well in these courses.

4. You also could just get an MA in economics and hit the job market. This would allow various government jobs. You could also be a lecturer at many colleges and universities with a masters, as well as a professor at the community college level. Jobs for think tanks and non-profits are also probably available to someone with an MA in economics.

bheld · 05-21-2008, 08:29 PM

I definitely don't have any delusions about acing the GRE subject test for math. I know it's totally different from the quant section on the GRE. I thought that maybe doing halfway decent would show that I can do a bit more advanced math like calculus and analysis since the work that I've done in math doesn't show up on my transcript.

Maybe it would be enough to just say I've been studying independently though. I guess that goes back to my original question. Will:

a) an admissions committee even look at an additional score they didn't request; and
b) if so, will an average score do the trick or will it need to be a top percentile job to counteract the marginal undergrad math record?

Judging by the responses so far I'm leaning toward getting the masters while picking up the math I need.

Mr.Keen · 05-21-2008, 09:26 PM

The MA way is definitely the best for you. Just use all your electives to take advanced math and stats, write a decent thesis and do well in all coursework and you'll be in good shape.

econphilomath · 05-22-2008, 12:49 PM

IMO:
You need LORs and grades. Both of those you can get with an MA. Pick a program that you think can get you in contact with decent LOR writers.

GRE and the rest are details. Good Luck.

05-21-2008, 04:46 PM	#1 (permalink)
bheld Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 7	reality check needed re: grad school Hi everyone, I've been lurking here for a while and decided to post my profile to see what I can realistically expect as I attempt to get into a PhD program. There isn't exactly one area I'm interested in specializing in that I've found. I have interests in political economy and nontraditional/crossover applications in areas like education and public health, and what really draws me in is the extreme flexibility economists enjoy. It seems like an economist is taken seriously no matter what issue or field he or she weighs in on. Right now I'm a junior high math teacher. I've been out of school for about a year now and got my degree in education with a business minor. I ended up with about a 3.37 gpa due to the typical goofing off freshman and sophomore years. I've had calc I and II (C+ and B+), linear algebra (A-), and a probability and statistics course (can't remember if I got a B+ or A-). I also took micro and macro but grades on those don't impress much since (like calc I) I took them during my freshman and sophomore years. Yeah, I know, a math teacher that didn't even major in math. I went to a fairly decent state university but I have zero contacts right now in academia and, as you would expect, absolutely nothing in the way of research experience. With all this going against me you can be sure of the fact that I wouldn't be posting here unless I was really, really sure that I wanted to go into economics. I'm taking the GRE next month which I'm expecting to do well on. I'm good with standardized tests and assuming I get a very good score, what are my options going to be as far as getting into a decent program? My career goals lie in academia or the public sector. I'm not really interested in working in the corporate world, so if that's my only option I might have to look into what else I can do for the rest of my life. I've already started contacting some offices to see if I can help out with some research but haven't heard anything on that front yet. Does anybody have any advice in that area? I'm assuming research experience would be a big boost to an otherwise weak application file. I'm also wondering if I could take something like the Math GRE to show that I can handle the upper-level math, since many admissions boards might be wary of a transcript that stops at linear algebra with otherwise basic courses like stats and finite math. So to review, here's my status. Out of school, basically no contacts no research experience pedestrian GPA, decent math grades working independently on math skills GRE being taken in 3 weeks I know it doesn't look good on the surface, but I know I can do well in econ. Basically I need some advice on what to do to beef up this profile so that a decent program will give me a shot.

05-21-2008, 08:29 PM	#8 (permalink)
bheld Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 7	I definitely don't have any delusions about acing the GRE subject test for math. I know it's totally different from the quant section on the GRE. I thought that maybe doing halfway decent would show that I can do a bit more advanced math like calculus and analysis since the work that I've done in math doesn't show up on my transcript. Maybe it would be enough to just say I've been studying independently though. I guess that goes back to my original question. Will: a) an admissions committee even look at an additional score they didn't request; and b) if so, will an average score do the trick or will it need to be a top percentile job to counteract the marginal undergrad math record? Judging by the responses so far I'm leaning toward getting the masters while picking up the math I need. Last edited by bheld : 05-21-2008 at 08:47 PM.

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05-21-2008, 05:37 PM	#2 (permalink)
desimba Within my grasp! Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 206	Math is without doubt the most critical part of the application package and your grades currently do not reflect very favorably on your math skills. Two potential ways of addressing that: 1) (As you suggested) Taking the math GRE, acing it, and also having some/ all of your recommenders talk about how you can handle the math that is thrown at you 2) Enrolling in a graduate program in math/ economics and scoring well in the program Frankly I feel that with your current profile unless you were to go for a subsequent graduate education and do reasonably well there, it would be tough for you to get into an econ program within the top 50. Beyond that there might be schools which will be fine with a somewhat weaker application package but there is no way you can predict apriori which schools will be OK and you may either have to apply to a large number of schools to be sure of getting admitted/ reach out to some specific faculty members at some of these lower ranked schools and see which of them would be OK with your profile. My 2 cents!

05-21-2008, 07:13 PM	#3 (permalink)
bheld Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 7	Thanks for the feedback. I think if the GRE math subject test would be considered by admissions committees that's something I will definitely do. When you talk about enrolling in a math/econ graduate program are there any particular programs you'd recommend? Any advice on getting connected with research or is that a pointless pursuit?

05-21-2008, 07:24 PM	#5 (permalink)
bheld Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 7	Yeah, I can definitely see the value of research. I'm a little bit worried about being able to find an opportunity though given my lack of background and being a year removed from school.

05-21-2008, 07:57 PM	#6 (permalink)
crutchboy3 Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14	I think there is a bit of confusion about the math GRE. It is very advantageous to do well on the quantitative portion of the general GRE and this is something that you can expect to do with reasonable preparation. The math subject GRE on the other hand is a completely different animal. Doing very well on this test will certainly be a good sign to admission commitees, this is much easier said then done. The math subject GRE is meant to test students intending to attend math graduate schools, so the majority of test takers are mathematics majors and have done very well on all courses. This test is certainly not one where you can plan to do a bit of study and ace it as I know several students attending graduate school in mathematics at very good schools, and none of them came close to acing the test. If you can ace the test, then great, but in the end, I think your best course of action is to attempt to find some research positions, and at the same time take some more advanced mathematics and econ courses to improve your academic profile. The best option would probably be a master's degree before applying for PhD programs so that you can get both exposure to research and more advanced coursework.

05-21-2008, 09:26 PM	#9 (permalink)
Mr.Keen The Fire! Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 612	The MA way is definitely the best for you. Just use all your electives to take advanced math and stats, write a decent thesis and do well in all coursework and you'll be in good shape.

05-22-2008, 12:49 PM	#10 (permalink)
econphilomath Adriannn! Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,255	IMO: You need LORs and grades. Both of those you can get with an MA. Pick a program that you think can get you in contact with decent LOR writers. GRE and the rest are details. Good Luck.

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