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Bayern · 06-21-2008, 06:10 PM

I really need some advice on the choice of my letter writers. I am well aware that I should choose the person who is most enthusiastic about me, but the problem is that, given my performance, I do not really know who will be most enthusiastic about my performance. My first two letter writers are two assistant professors, who will write very enthusiastic letters. The problem is the third letter. The choices are:

1) An Associate Prof in econ, and he will also be moving to one of the top 4 dept in England in the coming academic year. That is why I am also looking into funding opportunities in England as he may have some influence in his dept. Problem is I got two B+ with him (the only grades in econ other than A). He is a very strict grader, and give out very rare As. So a B+ is pretty good in his eyes. I am from a LAC, so it may also be good to have a Professor from top UK university to recommend me.

2) An Associate Prof in math. I had two courses with him... Game Theory and Statistics. Problem is that the Stats class was a directed reading class i.e. I was the only person in the class, while the Stats class was also similar, there were 3 people in the class. He is also known to be very strict grader, and he gave old exams from previous classes which I guess allowed him to compare my performance and give me the grade. But again, he will not have the chance to have a straightforward comparison to many other students.

3) An Associate Prof in math. He is a very easy grader. For some reason I took a class Pass/Fail with him, so I did not give my full effort there, and most probably I got a B/B-, but I have no way of finding that out. I got an A with him in another course (I did really well), and most likely will get another A in the coming semester. Problem is the first course which I took with him, and he is not supposed to know that I took it Pass/Fail.

The question is, given my circumstances, from who will it be best to take the letter from, or who is more likely to write the most enthusiastic letter? Even if someone could narrow down the choices to two, then that would be of great help. Thanks for your help

asianeconomist · 06-21-2008, 06:16 PM

It really is a close call here. But I can give you one advice (in fact I tried it myself).

I initially started a discussion with my prospective recommender and told him about the schools that I was thinking about applying (usually schools in the mid-range). Now, the one who was most enthusiastic about me in fact asked me to add more top schools in my list and the one who wrote the least favourable letter asked me to delete a few schools from my initial list.

I don't know that whether this will work with maths professors or not, but it's worth a shot.

Bayern · 06-21-2008, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asianeconomist

I initially started a discussion with my prospective recommender and told him about the schools that I was thinking about applying (usually schools in the mid-range). Now, the one who was most enthusiastic about me in fact asked me to add more top schools in my list and the one who wrote the least favourable letter asked me to delete a few schools from my initial list.

I don't know that whether this will work with maths professors or not, but it's worth a shot.

It may be a nice thing to try, and I will attempt to do that. As math professors do not have much idea on the ranks of the schools, it may not work for them. And for the econ prof, I am actually more curious about what he will write. I mean, if he says yes, I am pretty sure he will not write anything bad, but he may be tad bit less enthusiastic than my other two econ letter writers, and I do not really know how that may hurt me. The same is true for my other potential letter writers.

ImProcrastinating · 06-22-2008, 04:45 AM

I would probably ask the first one, for two reasons:

1) He'll soon be at a top school, and is therefore probably pretty well published and well known.

2) A B+ is good in his eyes. The problem all graduate programs have when evaluating applicants is that a B+ in one class is not necessarily the same as a B+ in another class. If your professor gives you a solid recommendation after a B+, I'd guess it would make the adcoms view that grade in a more positive light.

For basically the reverse of reason 2, I wouldn't ask for the third letter. The fact that he's an easy grader makes the B- that much worse (though if you really want to, you could explain to him the pass/fail thing.) Also, I definitely wouldn't ask a Government professor for a letter. Even if he is extremely enthusiastic about you, he won't know what to say in a letter to econ professors.

eqtisadi · 06-22-2008, 08:14 AM

(1) Ceteris paribus (including the enthusiasm of the letter), you need to find the professor that will have the best chances that a random adcom member knows him/her.
(2) Ceteris paribus (including the chances of adcoms knowing your recommender), you need to find the professor that will be most enthusiastic about you.

I guess the problem with enthusiasm is that if the adcom doesn't know the mean enthusiasm of the recommender (or the 90th percentile of it), the weight they put on it is small. This is why they still have this recommenders' form in which they are asked if the candidate is top 1%, top 5%, etc. Hopefully, even if this professor is unknown, if s/he will mark you as top x% (where x is small enough and students from your university succeeded in the department you're applying to), the letter will be taken seriously enough even though the professor might be unknown.
So, maybe going to professors that graded you below the top 5% in class is not the best option.

Bayern · 06-22-2008, 12:28 PM

Thank you for the advices ImProcrastinating and eqtisadi. Basically I am extremely confused as I agree with both of your points, which are counter-arguments for each other. About the class rank of the two classes with the econ prof, one was a very small class, while the other was an independent study with him i.e. a research project individually with him. So I think there will be reduced importance of the class rank for this letter. But yes, I did an independent study with him and got a B+, so I do not really know whether it will be a '+' or '-' for my letter.

eqtisadi · 06-24-2008, 05:52 AM

I don't think the actual class size matters. The professor should rank you among all students s/he got to know over the years. They don't ask him/her how many students he had. As long as you think s/he'll check the x% box you are interested in, then go for it.

treblekicker · 06-24-2008, 07:57 PM

Sorry to hijack this thread but I have a LOR question as well. I know two of letter writers for sure and I believe them to be very enthusiastic. However, I am uncertain about my third one. My three options are:

1) Head of Econ Dept (tenured, Penn State): I have never had any classes with this professor, but I have had significant interaction with him over the past year where I have done a lot of various volunteering/ work/ independent study for the dept. He has had some good publishes, however, he is not very active anymore.

2) Head of Math Dept. (tenured, Rochester for Math): I took Math Stats with this professor last semester and received an A in the course. The class had about 12 students in it, with only another student and I as undergrads. In fact, the course had a few econ grad students in it. While this professor could make a good comparison between me and graduate students, this is the only course I took with him, so he does not know me that well.

3) Math Prof (tenured, Princeton for Math): I took Real Analysis and Complex Variables with this professor over the past year. I received an A in complex and an A- in RA. I was certainly the best student in a class of about 30 in Complex (although the course was more on the applied side) and I think I got the highest grade of all the UGs in RA (the class was about half grad students in a class size of about 10). My main concern about this professor is his (in)famy. He was involved in offering a complete proof of a famous conjecture and is the editor of a journal but later had to publish an erratum for said proof. I do not know how much this would matter for Econ admissions though.

Bayern · 06-24-2008, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eqtisadi

I don't think the actual class size matters. The professor should rank you among all students s/he got to know over the years. They don't ask him/her how many students he had. As long as you think s/he'll check the x% box you are interested in, then go for it.

Actually, you are right. After seeing your post, I just checked a sample LOR form, and it does ask to compare the student with other students the faculty sent to graduate schools before. So class rank is not important in that respect. Thanks for pointing this out.

econyun · 06-26-2008, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treblekicker

Sorry to hijack this thread but I have a LOR question as well. I know two of letter writers for sure and I believe them to be very enthusiastic. However, I am uncertain about my third one. My three options are:

1) Head of Econ Dept (tenured, Penn State): I have never had any classes with this professor, but I have had significant interaction with him over the past year where I have done a lot of various volunteering/ work/ independent study for the dept. He has had some good publishes, however, he is not very active anymore.

2) Head of Math Dept. (tenured, Rochester for Math): I took Math Stats with this professor last semester and received an A in the course. The class had about 12 students in it, with only another student and I as undergrads. In fact, the course had a few econ grad students in it. While this professor could make a good comparison between me and graduate students, this is the only course I took with him, so he does not know me that well.

3) Math Prof (tenured, Princeton for Math): I took Real Analysis and Complex Variables with this professor over the past year. I received an A in complex and an A- in RA. I was certainly the best student in a class of about 30 in Complex (although the course was more on the applied side) and I think I got the highest grade of all the UGs in RA (the class was about half grad students in a class size of about 10). My main concern about this professor is his (in)famy. He was involved in offering a complete proof of a famous conjecture and is the editor of a journal but later had to publish an erratum for said proof. I do not know how much this would matter for Econ admissions though.

What about the other two LOR writers?
Are they professor in Economics?
If yes, I would rule out the 2nd choice above.
But if two of your LOR writers are not professors in Economics, I prefer the 1st choice above.

06-21-2008, 06:10 PM	#1 (permalink)
Bayern On the road... Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 433	Sorry... but really need advice for the choice of letter writers I really need some advice on the choice of my letter writers. I am well aware that I should choose the person who is most enthusiastic about me, but the problem is that, given my performance, I do not really know who will be most enthusiastic about my performance. My first two letter writers are two assistant professors, who will write very enthusiastic letters. The problem is the third letter. The choices are: 1) An Associate Prof in econ, and he will also be moving to one of the top 4 dept in England in the coming academic year. That is why I am also looking into funding opportunities in England as he may have some influence in his dept. Problem is I got two B+ with him (the only grades in econ other than A). He is a very strict grader, and give out very rare As. So a B+ is pretty good in his eyes. I am from a LAC, so it may also be good to have a Professor from top UK university to recommend me. 2) An Associate Prof in math. I had two courses with him... Game Theory and Statistics. Problem is that the Stats class was a directed reading class i.e. I was the only person in the class, while the Stats class was also similar, there were 3 people in the class. He is also known to be very strict grader, and he gave old exams from previous classes which I guess allowed him to compare my performance and give me the grade. But again, he will not have the chance to have a straightforward comparison to many other students. 3) An Associate Prof in math. He is a very easy grader. For some reason I took a class Pass/Fail with him, so I did not give my full effort there, and most probably I got a B/B-, but I have no way of finding that out. I got an A with him in another course (I did really well), and most likely will get another A in the coming semester. Problem is the first course which I took with him, and he is not supposed to know that I took it Pass/Fail. The question is, given my circumstances, from who will it be best to take the letter from, or who is more likely to write the most enthusiastic letter? Even if someone could narrow down the choices to two, then that would be of great help. Thanks for your help

06-22-2008, 08:14 AM	#5 (permalink)
eqtisadi Rationally insane Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 225	(1) Ceteris paribus (including the enthusiasm of the letter), you need to find the professor that will have the best chances that a random adcom member knows him/her. (2) Ceteris paribus (including the chances of adcoms knowing your recommender), you need to find the professor that will be most enthusiastic about you. I guess the problem with enthusiasm is that if the adcom doesn't know the mean enthusiasm of the recommender (or the 90th percentile of it), the weight they put on it is small. This is why they still have this recommenders' form in which they are asked if the candidate is top 1%, top 5%, etc. Hopefully, even if this professor is unknown, if s/he will mark you as top x% (where x is small enough and students from your university succeeded in the department you're applying to), the letter will be taken seriously enough even though the professor might be unknown. So, maybe going to professors that graded you below the top 5% in class is not the best option. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ Going to: Stanford

06-24-2008, 05:52 AM	#7 (permalink)
eqtisadi Rationally insane Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 225	I don't think the actual class size matters. The professor should rank you among all students s/he got to know over the years. They don't ask him/her how many students he had. As long as you think s/he'll check the x% box you are interested in, then go for it. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ Going to: Stanford

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06-21-2008, 06:16 PM	#2 (permalink)
asianeconomist Loving the game Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 1,017	It really is a close call here. But I can give you one advice (in fact I tried it myself). I initially started a discussion with my prospective recommender and told him about the schools that I was thinking about applying (usually schools in the mid-range). Now, the one who was most enthusiastic about me in fact asked me to add more top schools in my list and the one who wrote the least favourable letter asked me to delete a few schools from my initial list. I don't know that whether this will work with maths professors or not, but it's worth a shot.

06-22-2008, 04:45 AM	#4 (permalink)
ImProcrastinating Eager! Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 57	I would probably ask the first one, for two reasons: 1) He'll soon be at a top school, and is therefore probably pretty well published and well known. 2) A B+ is good in his eyes. The problem all graduate programs have when evaluating applicants is that a B+ in one class is not necessarily the same as a B+ in another class. If your professor gives you a solid recommendation after a B+, I'd guess it would make the adcoms view that grade in a more positive light. For basically the reverse of reason 2, I wouldn't ask for the third letter. The fact that he's an easy grader makes the B- that much worse (though if you really want to, you could explain to him the pass/fail thing.) Also, I definitely wouldn't ask a Government professor for a letter. Even if he is extremely enthusiastic about you, he won't know what to say in a letter to econ professors.

06-22-2008, 12:28 PM	#6 (permalink)
Bayern On the road... Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 433	Thank you for the advices ImProcrastinating and eqtisadi. Basically I am extremely confused as I agree with both of your points, which are counter-arguments for each other. About the class rank of the two classes with the econ prof, one was a very small class, while the other was an independent study with him i.e. a research project individually with him. So I think there will be reduced importance of the class rank for this letter. But yes, I did an independent study with him and got a B+, so I do not really know whether it will be a '+' or '-' for my letter.

06-24-2008, 07:57 PM	#8 (permalink)
treblekicker Within my grasp! Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 130	Sorry to hijack this thread but I have a LOR question as well. I know two of letter writers for sure and I believe them to be very enthusiastic. However, I am uncertain about my third one. My three options are: 1) Head of Econ Dept (tenured, Penn State): I have never had any classes with this professor, but I have had significant interaction with him over the past year where I have done a lot of various volunteering/ work/ independent study for the dept. He has had some good publishes, however, he is not very active anymore. 2) Head of Math Dept. (tenured, Rochester for Math): I took Math Stats with this professor last semester and received an A in the course. The class had about 12 students in it, with only another student and I as undergrads. In fact, the course had a few econ grad students in it. While this professor could make a good comparison between me and graduate students, this is the only course I took with him, so he does not know me that well. 3) Math Prof (tenured, Princeton for Math): I took Real Analysis and Complex Variables with this professor over the past year. I received an A in complex and an A- in RA. I was certainly the best student in a class of about 30 in Complex (although the course was more on the applied side) and I think I got the highest grade of all the UGs in RA (the class was about half grad students in a class size of about 10). My main concern about this professor is his (in)famy. He was involved in offering a complete proof of a famous conjecture and is the editor of a journal but later had to publish an erratum for said proof. I do not know how much this would matter for Econ admissions though.

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