UK, Europe and Rest of the World schools

[rcwlhk]

I've been trying to follow this thread but I still don't quite understand it. From what has been discussed, it seems really no different than what I'm used to. Namely,

-Instructors / professors give lectures. Student attend lectures.

-Instructor gives out homework (either for marks or for no marks) and solutions. Also provides past exams and solutions if available.

-Contents of the notes are usually way too easy for doing well in the exams.

-Instructors usually have specified office hours where you can freely ask them questions.

What exactly is the difference (i.e. Pros vs. Cons) of a North American vs. European / UK style of teaching? Sorry, I've never done any schooling in Europe before --- appreciate it if somebody out there could enlighten me!

[FilleNouvelle]

Originally Posted by rcwlhk

I've been trying to follow this thread but I still don't quite understand it. From what has been discussed, it seems really no different than what I'm used to. Namely,

-Instructors / professors give lectures. Student attend lectures.

-Instructor gives out homework (either for marks or for no marks) and solutions. Also provides past exams and solutions if available.

-Contents of the notes are usually way too easy for doing well in the exams.

-Instructors usually have specified office hours where you can freely ask them questions.

What exactly is the difference (i.e. Pros vs. Cons) of a North American vs. European / UK style of teaching? Sorry, I've never done any schooling in Europe before --- appreciate it if somebody out there could enlighten me!

Right, I grew up in the US and went there for high school and went to the UK for undergrad (which I'm finishing this year). I can't completely say what the differences are having never been in the US for undergrad, but judging by what I've experienced and the experiences of my friends, I can venture a guess as to the main differences:

1) A lot less class time. Currently, I have 2 lectures a week per class, at 50 minutes a lecture. I'm also only allowed to take 3 classes at a time. We have tutorial sessions every fortnight for two hours.

2) We don't have homework in the traditional sense. We are given problem sets and readings to do, and often we discuss them in tutorial, but it's never graded. We do have at least one graded assignment (an essay, project, or midterm) that can count for anywhere from 5-25% of your mark depending on the class. I've heard at some British unis classwork can count for as much as 40% or some don't count classwork at all. The exam makes up the rest of the grade, and usually it is a 2 or 3 hour exam.

3) Exam material may be on stuff not covered in the lecture at all. For instance, on a history of economic thought exam, there was an essay question asking the student to compare Malthus and Keynes. The course itself covered theory up to Keynes, but not including Keynes. The only material we had relating Keynes to Malthus was one reading listed at the bottom of a quite extensive reading list (and it isn't expected that you would read the whole list). I think this is meant so that outstanding students have questions where they can show of their brilliance if they can.

4) A's are a lot less common. I know in my university, it is a policy that only the top 10% of students receive A's.

I personally think it is the lack of continuous assessment that gives people the impression that they're left to fend for themselves. If you've got constant affirmation that you're doing well, it's a lot easier to have confidence and appreciate your classes more.

[FilleNouvelle]

Originally Posted by asianeconomist

OK. So the teaching style is not unique to Oxbridge, but rather rampant across UK and Europe.

I would think so, yes. I have friends who did an exchange at Toulouse via Erasmus and they say the system was quite similar.

[asianeconomist]

Originally Posted by FilleNouvelle

3) Exam material may be on stuff not covered in the lecture at all. For instance, on a history of economic thought exam, there was an essay question asking the student to compare Malthus and Keynes. The course itself covered theory up to Keynes, but not including Keynes. The only material we had relating Keynes to Malthus was one reading listed at the bottom of a quite extensive reading list (and it isn't expected that you would read the whole list). I think this is meant so that outstanding students have questions where they can show of their brilliance if they can.

That's brutal isn't it ? It would seem that hard-work is rewarded more than sheer brilliance under these circumstances.

[Centrum]

no not at all...this was a history class!! what do u expect? I don't know anyone who can get an A in an history class because he's brilliant!!

Okay having studied at the undergraduate level in the US as well as Germany, I'll tell you the differences I have noticed.

Teaching:
The professor holds lectures usually 1.5 hours twice a week and his teaching assistants hold a 1.5 hours tutorial class. This is the usual workload for one class. You get problem sets each week which will be discussed in the tutorial class and which are not graded. So, it's basically up to you if you do them or not. However, not doing them is the most secure way to fail the class. The lectures are very theoretical and usually attendence breaks down during the semester since students who don't keep up are not able to follow the lecturer. Also, there is no such thing as attendence points...or something like that...

Maths needed:
Right from the beginning of your studies you NEED mult. calc. in Germany. The introductory classes I took in the US however basically didn't use any math. Overall, I believe in Europe the technical level (math) in economics classes at the UNDERGRADUATE level is much higher. That's also the reason why european students have usually little math classes showing up on their transcripts because the economics classes are basically applied math classes.

Grading:
def. more strict in germany. Since, you just have one test at the end of the semester you can't make up for a bad grade...also usually 30%-40% fail and less than 10% usually are better than a B. This is mostly due to the fact that tests are different. While most tests I took in the US basically asked you to do what you did during class or homework assignments in Germany this is just the minimum required to pass the test. Most questions on the exam ask you to apply your knowledge to problems which you haven't seen like that before.

Okay these are the main aspects I noticed. All this however might be different from school to school...I believe the TOP departments in the US might be different...but I don't know this..

[tennisboy85]

I have also studied in Europe (France) as well as the US. It is true that the economics classes are way more mathematical in France than in the US. Sometimes I actually thought that they were too mathematical, not really explaining much of the theory behind it. Equations following equations. Moreover, my classes in France were way more specialized. The problem with this system is that most students do not know many very basic economic implications. Moreover, the classes in the US were much more applied and real-world based (with brandnew textbooks), while in France they were much more theoretical. There was a lot more interaction between students and the professor in my US classes.
All in all, I think the US system is better, however, it certainly has a great flaw by not having sufficient math (and even the math courses are more basic than their European counterparts) in the economics courses.

[snowme]

I have also studied in Germany and the US and I absolutely agree with what has been stated in the last two posts.

However, I'd like to add one thing. I think one of the reasons for these differences is that a lot of the stuff that is covered in the basic math courses in the US, is already taught in European high schools. (The first 2,3 semesters in US college are basically equal to the last 2 years in German high school).

So my main point is that those differences are mainly due to differences in the educational systems (at least in terms of Germany/US).

[FilleNouvelle]

Originally Posted by Centrum

no not at all...this was a history class!! what do u expect? I don't know anyone who can get an A in an history class because he's brilliant!!

Okay having studied at the undergraduate level in the US as well as Germany, I'll tell you the differences I have noticed.

Teaching:
The professor holds lectures usually 1.5 hours twice a week and his teaching assistants hold a 1.5 hours tutorial class. This is the usual workload for one class. You get problem sets each week which will be discussed in the tutorial class and which are not graded. So, it's basically up to you if you do them or not. However, not doing them is the most secure way to fail the class. The lectures are very theoretical and usually attendence breaks down during the semester since students who don't keep up are not able to follow the lecturer. Also, there is no such thing as attendence points...or something like that...

Maths needed:
Right from the beginning of your studies you NEED mult. calc. in Germany. The introductory classes I took in the US however basically didn't use any math. Overall, I believe in Europe the technical level (math) in economics classes at the UNDERGRADUATE level is much higher. That's also the reason why european students have usually little math classes showing up on their transcripts because the economics classes are basically applied math classes.

Grading:
def. more strict in germany. Since, you just have one test at the end of the semester you can't make up for a bad grade...also usually 30%-40% fail and less than 10% usually are better than a B. This is mostly due to the fact that tests are different. While most tests I took in the US basically asked you to do what you did during class or homework assignments in Germany this is just the minimum required to pass the test. Most questions on the exam ask you to apply your knowledge to problems which you haven't seen like that before.

Okay these are the main aspects I noticed. All this however might be different from school to school...I believe the TOP departments in the US might be different...but I don't know this..

Definitely agree about the math. I have friends at top schools in the US who haven't done much math in Economics apart from basic econometrics.

And my history class example was not just in history...it's happened in every subject I've had. Talking with professors, they have said that they present more difficult questions for a reason....they want top students to earn their A by exhibiting they've worked above and beyond the course requirements.

[asianeconomist]

Originally Posted by FilleNouvelle

they have said that they present more difficult questions for a reason....they want top students to earn their A by exhibiting they've worked above and beyond the course requirements.

That's reasonable I guess.

[calchas]

Originally Posted by FilleNouvelle (UK, Europe and Rest of the World schools)
they have said that they present more difficult questions for a reason....they want top students to earn their A by exhibiting they've worked above and beyond the course requirements.
......

What are the course loads then? Here in the US, taking 4 or 5 classes a semester is a common minimum. These require roughly 15-20 hours of class time. If you throw in doing the homework and reading assignments, a full-time student can easily spend a 40 hour week doing just the "required" work.

Now, if u want to get an A grade in each class in the German system under such a courseload, it seems like you'll have to spend "above and beyond" time for each of those five courses .. How much time will that take? Do students keep part-time jobs while doing UG?