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FOSD · 08-06-2008, 12:43 PM

Also, you will be doing vast amounts of work regardless of which program you go into. So all else equal, for the same (or similar) level of effort required, it is advantageous to get into the best program possible that meets your needs. Also, it will be easier to land that slightly more relaxed job in the end if you graduate from a top department as pedigree still has some power of persuasion in the job market.

Canuckonomist · 08-06-2008, 03:02 PM

Assuming everything works out the way it should, cost-benefit analysis says,

Time and monetary cost of retaking the GRE = More prestigious program (by how much, I don't know,) + more relaxed job (less effort required to "prove yourself", as the degree does alittle bit more of that) + a better chance, should you want to, of being a professor at a decent institution where you won't have to teach all the time.

Something tells me that the benefits (right side) are greater than the cost.

Note that I share some of your preferences, in that I don't need the best in everything, and I'm happy (and would prefer) ending up in a professorial job in Canada, versus a higher ranked program in the states. (It surprises some people that I would turn down a tenure-track job at an American big 5, for a tenure-track job at a Canadian big 4. After all, MIT and Harvard aren't for everyone.)

Retake the GRE. The benefits of this one-time commitment may show up in more places than you think.

oldprogrammer · 08-06-2008, 03:17 PM

With great LORs, I think your GRE-Q is good enough for anything but the very best. However, a lot of schools outside the top 20, oddly enough, will put more weight on the GRE score. In fact, many may have an arbitrary cut-off around 500 on each section. So you might give the GRE another shot just in case you can pull out a little bit better score.

Another note is that most programs frown on admitting people not focused on an academic/research career.

YoungEconomist · 08-06-2008, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by averageaverage

So, I emailed my GRE score to my professors,
"I got 390 on V and 770 on Q. I am looking for a 50ish ranked PhD program. What do u think?'

They replied me,
"You should apply for Cornell, Columbia, Barkley, and (fill out the rest with your favorite schools), and 390 on V rules you out. Study hard and retake it."

My major professor emailed me,
"You should retake GRE and you should rewrite the entire paper you submitted last week. You have three weeks before the fall starts. Good luck."

Yup. Thanks a lot. The professors support me so much! But, I don't have to get into Barkley or Columbia.

I don't need a faculty position at the most respected department, and produce ten papers a year using ten RAs... I don't need to be "Named University Professor of Economics, Nobel Lautrate."

I don't need any of those.

Is 390 on V that bad to get into a 50ish econ program? Do I need to push myself that hard to the point of death?

Or am I wrong? Don't I still understand how competitive Econ PhD's are?

Quote:

Originally Posted by averageaverage

Thanks a lot guys...
Well, I am not really looking for faculty positions.

I just want to work for some development bank (like World Bank and Asian Development Bank) to help developing nations in Asia and Africa to make poor people happier.

I see junior professors here, and I think that that is not a job I want... This might disappoint the professors but I just don't want that.
Thanks a lot for encouragements, jeeves0923 and africaecon and yes, my professors.... But top 20s are not a place I want to go...

So my question is what would be a good way to tell what I am thinking to my professor without hurting their emotion.
And the question I really want to ask is if my GRE score (770 Q and 390 V) is bad enough to rule me out of 50ish ranked programs or not...

It sounds to me like you're feeling a lot of pressure right now. I think we can all relate to the pressure (whether it's mainly coming from others or ourselves, it's still pressure).

I understand what you're saying too when it comes to not having to go to the top schools. I definitely understand that. Sometimes I think I'd be happier at my lowest ranked safety school than some of my target schools. I also understand where you're coming from when you say you don't want a faculty position (because most of the time, I don't think I want to be an academic either).

In the end, you have to do what's right for you. Forget what your professors think is right for you, and forget what TMers think is right for you (of course, you should hear what they have to say and take this into account when deciding what is best for you). If you've done your research, and have decided that some of the lower ranked schools are better fits for you (due to happiness, location, career goals, etc) then aim for those schools.

cooper · 08-06-2008, 04:10 PM

I had a 770Q and 370V when I took the GRE. To answer your question as to whether the low V score will affect you...well probably. I think that one school rejected me because of this (I spoke to a Professor that was not on the adcom that year but he was on the adcom in previous years and this was his speculation). Whether or not this was indeed the reason, it certainly raised question marks. Also, two schools (to which I was eventually acctepted) contacted my letter writers and asked about my ability to speak English. I am a native speaker so that probably leviated some uncertainty. But I am assuming you are not a native speaker (please correct me if I am wrong) so you may have to improve this. Take a look at the results 2007 sticky and see the schools I was accepted and rejetced from.

I did not retake it since I did not have enough confidence in raising my V score enough. If you retake and score low again, then this may confirm any doubts.

africaecon · 08-06-2008, 05:47 PM

I don't think GRE Q matters much as long as you have 760. I had 800, a friend of mine got 770 like you guys, and I know that he is better mathematician than I am ( believe me). Someone once said in a thread that, schools(top30) reject anything below 760 and then take a look at the rest of the pile. 800 does NOT guarantee a place in a top 20 school. I think you should focus on the math classes you take and the grades you get in them. If you score above 760 and you ace all your hard math classes, you get in any program you want.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Tex Jansen · 08-06-2008, 06:08 PM

One problem that you may run into is that lower ranked programs usually offer more TAships than top programs and may thus be more concerned about your verbal score. I agree that a good TOEFL or TSE score may help.

There are legitimate reasons why someone would choose to go to a lower ranked (and likely smaller) program when they were admitted to a higher rnaked program. If you have done your homework, don't apologize for it. Trust me that your professors are not so invested in your decision that they will be upset or offended.

bscout · 08-06-2008, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex Jansen

There are legitimate reasons why someone would choose to go to a lower ranked (and likely smaller) program when they were admitted to a higher rnaked program. If you have done your homework, don't apologize for it. Trust me that your professors are not so invested in your decision that they will be upset or offended.

I got accepted to programs that were higher ranked (a lot) than the one I am right now -the results are there since they were posted here as well the reasons why I made the decision-.
However, in my particular case, one of my recommender was a little bit upset with my resolution. In spite of the fact that I felt very bad back then, at the end of the day it is your life.

averageaverage · 08-06-2008, 07:16 PM

Hi guys! Thank you very much!

I was pretty stressed last night. Like you guys, I am putting so much effort on classes and research, sacrificing my personal life. I had a lot of conflicts with my girlfriend because I am always studying. It is fun to study and learn new things but I need to take care of my life, too.

I used to have so much fun all the time; many parties at local clubs and beach, intense exercise at my university's recreation center.

My friends always call me and blame that I became “anti-social.” My girlfriend says that I became less sweet. Even though she understands my situation, she can't afford not to feel lonely while I am at the library till late night almost everyday.

Life is difficult. And I know it is supposed to be difficult. And I know that I am old enough to stop blaming and to face all the difficulties and get over them.

Now, the entire department knows my GRE score and each professor says different things. One says that I should retake GRE and go to a top-tier department because I will do well. Another professor says that it is more benefitial to concentrate on coming graduate level econ courses and real analysis.

I was also told that 1st year funding would be really difficult as many departments are having less money for 1st year's. I also need to improve my accent (haha)...

--------

Thanks Africaecon. My recommender said that he would be surprised if I don't get into any of the tier-2 schools even with 390 V. So, I should not be so stressed.

Gecko. You are right. 390 V is definitely a risk. Even though I does not kill my application entirely.

Sonicskat, thanks. Vanderbilt would be nice too. I'll check out their program!

Asianeconomist. You always give me great suggestions. I really appreciate you. Yup, I am applying some AREs too!

Chstnut.cc. Yeah, European universities would be nice too. One concern is that my girlfriend is an American citizen..

JesusLovesATrier. Thanks! I should take TOEFL. I know.... I think I can do ok, I guess. I wrote once three years ago and I marked 587/677. And I should be able to mark far better than that today. I'll try TOEFL!

FOSD. Sure! Thanks for your cost + benefit analysis. You are right. I try hard as much as I can to make my future better.

Canuckonomist. Thanks! I would like to retake the GRE but it seems to me that resource I have is little short. No time, no money, and stressful life. Coming grad level econ courses and real analysis. I do my cost- benefit analysis and at the same time I try hard to find time to study for GRE!

Oldprogrammer. Yeah.... I emailed Rutgers and their administrative assistant told me the cut off for domestic students is 590 in Verbal... I kind of doubt it but that's what she said.

Youngeconomist, thank you very much! Yeah, I am bit preoccupied... But I try hard to go through this journey to find my future.

Coope. Yeah, 390 in V WILL affect. I am an international student but some schools don't look at applicants with lower than a certain score.

Africaecon. Well, Barkley's cut-off is 780.

Tex Jansen. Thanks! What you say is true. At the same time, GRE verbal does not reflect verbal communication skills at all. I know many Asian students who can't speak English but have decent score in V. Indeed, a lot of undergraduate international students can communicate in English better but have a lot lower V score. It is simply because many Asian Econ programs integrate GRE preparation in their curriculum...

Bscout. Yeah, I agree. It is my life... I don't want to make professors upset but it is my life. Not theirs.
And good luck in your study and research!

-----

It seems to me that many people here in this forum is really the BEST candidate for top schools and I am not one of them... But I hope my presence here will encourage not-so-perfect people struggling to get though this competitive process. Good luck on "average" students!

We're not even on the start-line yet. One year later, we are all (hopefully) facing new challenges, which are much more stressful, harder, and longer... But what all matter is if you are making a right effort as much as you can. Yes, it would be better to go to a better school in some sense. But I believe that there is no loser or winner.

------

FYI, I talked with my prof this morning and he called his friend at Barkley Ag Econ. The cut-off for Q is 780 (90 percentile). Anything less would not be looked at. So 770 in Q is not enough for top schools. And neverless to say, my V (390) does not meet their standard either.

(I don't know if this can be made public but I think it is okay because if it is "secret," adcoms never share with anyone outside even with close friends)...

breakz · 08-06-2008, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by africaecon

I don't think GRE Q matters much as long as you have 760. I had 800, a friend of mine got 770 like you guys, and I know that he is better mathematician than I am ( believe me). Someone once said in a thread that, schools(top30) reject anything below 760 and then take a look at the rest of the pile. 800 does NOT guarantee a place in a top 20 school. I think you should focus on the math classes you take and the grades you get in them. If you score above 760 and you ace all your hard math classes, you get in any program you want.

There is no iron clad cutoff (despite whatever people may say). I got a 770 on my first take, and have been told by admissions people from the same school (who were adcoms different years, top 50 program) to retake and not retake.

The higher the better, although some schools (Minnesota) have cutoffs at 780 (or even 790). Its really school-by-school, but you're right in that math classes do a lot to mitigate Q scores below 800.

08-06-2008, 03:02 PM	#12 (permalink)
Canuckonomist Loving the Ivory Tower Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Kingston, Canada Posts: 357	Assuming everything works out the way it should, cost-benefit analysis says, Time and monetary cost of retaking the GRE = More prestigious program (by how much, I don't know,) + more relaxed job (less effort required to "prove yourself", as the degree does alittle bit more of that) + a better chance, should you want to, of being a professor at a decent institution where you won't have to teach all the time. Something tells me that the benefits (right side) are greater than the cost. Note that I share some of your preferences, in that I don't need the best in everything, and I'm happy (and would prefer) ending up in a professorial job in Canada, versus a higher ranked program in the states. (It surprises some people that I would turn down a tenure-track job at an American big 5, for a tenure-track job at a Canadian big 4. After all, MIT and Harvard aren't for everyone.) Retake the GRE. The benefits of this one-time commitment may show up in more places than you think. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ Attending Queen's University Applying to: UChicago, NWU, Yale, NYU, Columbia, Michigan, Minnesota, Cornell, Rochester, BU, Toronto Ph.D comics by Jorge Cham... Now I can actually say they relate.

08-06-2008, 04:10 PM	#15 (permalink)
cooper Eager! Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 73	I had a 770Q and 370V when I took the GRE. To answer your question as to whether the low V score will affect you...well probably. I think that one school rejected me because of this (I spoke to a Professor that was not on the adcom that year but he was on the adcom in previous years and this was his speculation). Whether or not this was indeed the reason, it certainly raised question marks. Also, two schools (to which I was eventually acctepted) contacted my letter writers and asked about my ability to speak English. I am a native speaker so that probably leviated some uncertainty. But I am assuming you are not a native speaker (please correct me if I am wrong) so you may have to improve this. Take a look at the results 2007 sticky and see the schools I was accepted and rejetced from. I did not retake it since I did not have enough confidence in raising my V score enough. If you retake and score low again, then this may confirm any doubts. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ University of Iowa 2nd year.

08-06-2008, 07:16 PM	#19 (permalink)
averageaverage wanna have a happy life Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 15	Hi guys! Thank you very much! I was pretty stressed last night. Like you guys, I am putting so much effort on classes and research, sacrificing my personal life. I had a lot of conflicts with my girlfriend because I am always studying. It is fun to study and learn new things but I need to take care of my life, too. I used to have so much fun all the time; many parties at local clubs and beach, intense exercise at my university's recreation center. My friends always call me and blame that I became “anti-social.” My girlfriend says that I became less sweet. Even though she understands my situation, she can't afford not to feel lonely while I am at the library till late night almost everyday. Life is difficult. And I know it is supposed to be difficult. And I know that I am old enough to stop blaming and to face all the difficulties and get over them. Now, the entire department knows my GRE score and each professor says different things. One says that I should retake GRE and go to a top-tier department because I will do well. Another professor says that it is more benefitial to concentrate on coming graduate level econ courses and real analysis. I was also told that 1st year funding would be really difficult as many departments are having less money for 1st year's. I also need to improve my accent (haha)... -------- Thanks Africaecon. My recommender said that he would be surprised if I don't get into any of the tier-2 schools even with 390 V. So, I should not be so stressed. Gecko. You are right. 390 V is definitely a risk. Even though I does not kill my application entirely. Sonicskat, thanks. Vanderbilt would be nice too. I'll check out their program! Asianeconomist. You always give me great suggestions. I really appreciate you. Yup, I am applying some AREs too! Chstnut.cc. Yeah, European universities would be nice too. One concern is that my girlfriend is an American citizen.. JesusLovesATrier. Thanks! I should take TOEFL. I know.... I think I can do ok, I guess. I wrote once three years ago and I marked 587/677. And I should be able to mark far better than that today. I'll try TOEFL! FOSD. Sure! Thanks for your cost + benefit analysis. You are right. I try hard as much as I can to make my future better. Canuckonomist. Thanks! I would like to retake the GRE but it seems to me that resource I have is little short. No time, no money, and stressful life. Coming grad level econ courses and real analysis. I do my cost- benefit analysis and at the same time I try hard to find time to study for GRE! Oldprogrammer. Yeah.... I emailed Rutgers and their administrative assistant told me the cut off for domestic students is 590 in Verbal... I kind of doubt it but that's what she said. Youngeconomist, thank you very much! Yeah, I am bit preoccupied... But I try hard to go through this journey to find my future. Coope. Yeah, 390 in V WILL affect. I am an international student but some schools don't look at applicants with lower than a certain score. Africaecon. Well, Barkley's cut-off is 780. Tex Jansen. Thanks! What you say is true. At the same time, GRE verbal does not reflect verbal communication skills at all. I know many Asian students who can't speak English but have decent score in V. Indeed, a lot of undergraduate international students can communicate in English better but have a lot lower V score. It is simply because many Asian Econ programs integrate GRE preparation in their curriculum... Bscout. Yeah, I agree. It is my life... I don't want to make professors upset but it is my life. Not theirs. And good luck in your study and research! ----- It seems to me that many people here in this forum is really the BEST candidate for top schools and I am not one of them... But I hope my presence here will encourage not-so-perfect people struggling to get though this competitive process. Good luck on "average" students! We're not even on the start-line yet. One year later, we are all (hopefully) facing new challenges, which are much more stressful, harder, and longer... But what all matter is if you are making a right effort as much as you can. Yes, it would be better to go to a better school in some sense. But I believe that there is no loser or winner. ------ FYI, I talked with my prof this morning and he called his friend at Barkley Ag Econ. The cut-off for Q is 780 (90 percentile). Anything less would not be looked at. So 770 in Q is not enough for top schools. And neverless to say, my V (390) does not meet their standard either. (I don't know if this can be made public but I think it is okay because if it is "secret," adcoms never share with anyone outside even with close friends)... Last edited by averageaverage : 08-06-2008 at 07:34 PM.

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08-06-2008, 12:43 PM	#11 (permalink)
FOSD Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5	Also, you will be doing vast amounts of work regardless of which program you go into. So all else equal, for the same (or similar) level of effort required, it is advantageous to get into the best program possible that meets your needs. Also, it will be easier to land that slightly more relaxed job in the end if you graduate from a top department as pedigree still has some power of persuasion in the job market.

08-06-2008, 03:17 PM	#13 (permalink)
oldprogrammer Within my grasp! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Dallas, Texas, USA Posts: 203	With great LORs, I think your GRE-Q is good enough for anything but the very best. However, a lot of schools outside the top 20, oddly enough, will put more weight on the GRE score. In fact, many may have an arbitrary cut-off around 500 on each section. So you might give the GRE another shot just in case you can pull out a little bit better score. Another note is that most programs frown on admitting people not focused on an academic/research career.

08-06-2008, 05:47 PM	#16 (permalink)
africaecon Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 26	I don't think GRE Q matters much as long as you have 760. I had 800, a friend of mine got 770 like you guys, and I know that he is better mathematician than I am ( believe me). Someone once said in a thread that, schools(top30) reject anything below 760 and then take a look at the rest of the pile. 800 does NOT guarantee a place in a top 20 school. I think you should focus on the math classes you take and the grades you get in them. If you score above 760 and you ace all your hard math classes, you get in any program you want. -----------------------------------------------------------------------

08-06-2008, 06:08 PM	#17 (permalink)
Tex Jansen Within my grasp! Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 171	One problem that you may run into is that lower ranked programs usually offer more TAships than top programs and may thus be more concerned about your verbal score. I agree that a good TOEFL or TSE score may help. There are legitimate reasons why someone would choose to go to a lower ranked (and likely smaller) program when they were admitted to a higher rnaked program. If you have done your homework, don't apologize for it. Trust me that your professors are not so invested in your decision that they will be upset or offended.

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