publicecon Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 These programs seem pretty orthogonal so I'm not sure if this dilemma comes up often. I'm interested in public finance and tax policy and wondering if people had thoughts on which program would be a better fit. Note that I'd rather end up at a straight econ department rather than a business school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tm_member Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 These programs seem pretty orthogonal so I'm not sure if this dilemma comes up often. I'm interested in public finance and tax policy and wondering if people had thoughts on which program would be a better fit. Note that I'd rather end up at a straight econ department rather than a business school. Why are you asking us this question then? Jeez, I am in a bad mood today... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
confusedgrad Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 with "end up" i guess publicecon refers to placement... so, academically, you can end up in a pure econ department with a phd from booth, i guess?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
good_tea Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 Why are you asking us this question then? Jeez, I am in a bad mood today... This is incredibly funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tm_member Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 with "end up" i guess publicecon refers to placement... so, academically, you can end up in a pure econ department with a phd from booth, i guess?? And now I see why I couldn't break into the top20... :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicecon Posted April 14, 2010 Author Share Posted April 14, 2010 Yea sorry not to be clear but I meant placement-wise. I know Chicago booth candidates do sometimes end up at straight econ programs but I think they tend to go towards finance. I think this year somebody went to a policy school. So it's hard to know since the program is so young and unique. There just isn't much information on booth out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tm_member Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 This is incredibly funny. Glad to bring the odd smile to the forum, Harry Lime is my hero... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asquare Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 These programs seem pretty orthogonal so I'm not sure if this dilemma comes up often. I'm interested in public finance and tax policy and wondering if people had thoughts on which program would be a better fit. Note that I'd rather end up at a straight econ department rather than a business school. Michigan :) The PF group here is phenomenal. The PF placements are strong. There are at least two PF seminars a week, and often other relevant seminars or speakers. There are lots of students with similar interests, which makes collaboration, brainstorming, and feedback easier. You'd be coming to a well-established program to work in its strongest field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicecon Posted April 14, 2010 Author Share Posted April 14, 2010 Thanks asquare! Any other thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takethemoneyandrun Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 I fully agree with asquare. U. Michigan is probably the best place in the world to study public economics (Grijalva & Nowell, 2008) and I have never heard a negative word said about the program. Its placements are outstanding and, if you're set on public finance, I cannot imagine a more ideal fit for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
econslave Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 Michigan seems to place extremely well in government and policy-oriented positions. That may simply be a function of its strength in public finance. Michigan is stronger in public finance than Booth, but Booth might still be better if you want an academic placement. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asquare Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 Michigan seems to place extremely well in government and policy-oriented positions. That may simply be a function of its strength in public finance. Michigan is stronger in public finance than Booth, but Booth might still be better if you want an academic placement. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Michigan also places well in academic positions. In the past 5 years, off the top of my head: Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Berkeley, U-Toronto, Williams, Chicago-Harris School, Carnegie Mellon, Rochester, Cornell (policy analysis and management), UC-Boulder, and many others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palikari Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 I think that Booth clearly dominates in placements. Michigan is a good place but at Booth in the past years you have students who have gone to Harvard, Penn, Stanford, Northwestern, Minnesota, Michigan, Cornell, and UBC. Keep in mind that the Michigan placements are only the top guys in classes of around 20. Booth accepts only about 2 students each year in the Econ program. Of those that go the academic route, about 50% get academic placements in the top 20. The guys who go into the private sector make megabucks with firms like GS, Barclays, KPMG, etc. To me the decision is a no brainer in favor of Booth, I view Booth as a top 10 maybe top 5 program. Booth is a very elite program which places the median student very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicecon Posted April 14, 2010 Author Share Posted April 14, 2010 (edited) so here are the placements of econ students since 2004 2010 Cornell, ILR (labor school) 2009 Associate Director, Chicago Partners (x2) Postdoctoral Fellow, RAND-University of Pittsburgh Health Institute Economist, Federal Trade Commission Assistant Professor of Finance, Stern School of Business, New York University 2008 Associate Director, Becker Center, Booth School of Business, University of Chicago Assistant Professor of Finance, Kellogg School of Management, Northwestern University 2007 Economist , National Economic Accounts/Research Group, Bureau of Economic Analysis 2006 Principal, Chicago Partners Assistant Professor of Finance, Carlson School of Management, University of Minnesota Assistant Professor of Finance, Tippie School of Management, University of Iowa Postdoctoral Fellow, American Enterprise Institute Model developer, Barclaycard International Assistant Professor of Finance and Managerial Economics, School of Management, University of Texas at Dallas 2005 Assistant Professor, Department of Economics, University of California, Santa Cruz Post-Doctoral Fellow in Finance, Harvard Business School, Harvard University Senior Lecturer, Graduate School of Business, Loyola University, Chicago Senior Consultant, NERA Economic Consulting, Boston, MA 2004 Assistant Professor of Economics, The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania Partner – S3 Asset Funding, President – Risk Economics Limited Assistant Professor, Department of Economics, University of Washington Assistant Professor, Business Economics, Ross School of Business, University of Michigan Edited April 14, 2010 by publicecon bad formatting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicecon Posted April 14, 2010 Author Share Posted April 14, 2010 I agree these are great academic placements but they seem very finance focused, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pappy Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 yea i agree. you can't just ignore the subfields and only look at the names of the placements. For the OP, if he says he's interested in PF, then I think Michigan is as good a place as any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vespertine Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 Yes, those placements at Booth look great. I think the average placement there is much better than the average at Michigan (asquare mentions the very best ones there, not the typical ones!), but it is more likely to be in a business school. If you really wish to do pure econ at a pure econ program, you might want to talk to the folks at Booth about that. Of course, business school profs make far more money than econ ones (and usually have nicer job conditions as well), so maybe you will change your mind! ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asquare Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 I think that Booth clearly dominates in placements. Michigan is a good place but at Booth in the past years you have students who have gone to Harvard, Penn, Stanford, Northwestern, Minnesota, Michigan, Cornell, and UBC. Keep in mind that the Michigan placements are only the top guys in classes of around 20. Booth accepts only about 2 students each year in the Econ program. Of those that go the academic route, about 50% get academic placements in the top 20. The guys who go into the private sector make megabucks with firms like GS, Barclays, KPMG, etc. To me the decision is a no brainer in favor of Booth, I view Booth as a top 10 maybe top 5 program. Booth is a very elite program which places the median student very well. If the OP wanted to study finance, or wanted to teach at a business school, then I would agree that Booth would be the right choice. But the OP wants to study PF and tax policy. Booth lists placements for 39 graduates of the economics program. By my count, 20 got academic placements, 16 went into industry or government, and 3 got postdocs. One of the academic placements was a lecturer position. Fourteen were in business schools and five were in economics departments. The median placement among those who stayed in academia was something like the business school at Iowa. Booth has some incredible placements, but I don't think the decision is as cut-and-dry as you imply, given the OP's choice of fields and preference for being in an economics department rather than a business school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palikari Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 Those are econ placements, the finance program is separate and has even better placements. The median was definitely not Iowa, that is easily in the lower quintile. Here's a rough list of top placements, the median placement is about top 20 Harvard, Booth, Northwestern (x2), Penn, Minnesota, Michigan, Stanford, Cornell, UBC. Michigan also has high attrition rates, right? Booth has very low attrition rates. I don't see why someone would want to be in an econ dept rather than a bschool. Basically the same job, just more money at the bschool. I agree that Michigan is great in public finance, but the OP might change what he wants to do. I think if he goes to Booth he is way more likely to have access to better faculty, will have more security, get a better placements, and make more money than if he goes to Michigan. Ann Arbor is a really nice place to live though, and the dept is still quite good. These are both good options but I think that Booth clearly dominates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pappy Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 Those are econ placements, the finance program is separate and has even better placements. The median was definitely not Iowa, that is easily in the lower quintile. Here's a rough list of top placements, the median placement is about top 20 Harvard, Booth, Northwestern (x2), Penn, Minnesota, Michigan, Stanford, Cornell, UBC. Michigan also has high attrition rates, right? Booth has very low attrition rates. I don't see why someone would want to be in an econ dept rather than a bschool. Basically the same job, just more money at the bschool. I agree that Michigan is great in public finance, but the OP might change what he wants to do. I think if he goes to Booth he is way more likely to have access to better faculty, will have more security, get a better placements, and make more money than if he goes to Michigan. Ann Arbor is a really nice place to live though, and the dept is still quite good. These are both good options but I think that Booth clearly dominates. First of all, Michigan has some of the lowest attrition rates of any top 15 dept. Secondly, if the OP didn't have a serious interest in PF, then the choice probably wouldn't be up for question. We should probably address the question on its own merits (i.e. taking into account what the OP says he/she's interested in) rather than just assuming she'll change her mind and should just go to the place with the best brand name placements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asquare Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 Those are econ placements, the finance program is separate and has even better placements. The median was definitely not Iowa, that is easily in the lower quintile. Here's a rough list of top placements, the median placement is about top 20 Harvard, Booth, Northwestern (x2), Penn, Minnesota, Michigan, Stanford, Cornell, UBC. Michigan also has high attrition rates, right? Booth has very low attrition rates. I don't see why someone would want to be in an econ dept rather than a bschool. Basically the same job, just more money at the bschool. I agree that Michigan is great in public finance, but the OP might change what he wants to do. I think if he goes to Booth he is way more likely to have access to better faculty, will have more security, get a better placements, and make more money than if he goes to Michigan. Ann Arbor is a really nice place to live though, and the dept is still quite good. These are both good options but I think that Booth clearly dominates. The academic placements for the econ track are: Stanford GSB, Northwestern, Northwestern, Chicago-Booth, NYU, Wharton, U-Mich Ross, Minnesota, Iowa, Texas-Dallas, SUNY, UBC, Tulane, UC-Santa Cruz, U of Washington, BYU, Montana State, a school in NZ and a school in Norway. Of those 20 placements, what do you think is the median? I agree that the top 8 placements are very strong. There's a pretty rapid drop off after that, though. You may not agree with wanting to be in an econ department rather than business school, but that's the OP's stated preference. I happen to agree with him. It's not the same job. You are teaching different material to a different group of students, surrounded by a different group of colleagues. A business school doesn't have regular PF seminars. Etc. If the OP was interested in finance, I would agree that Booth was a better option. However, I don't see why you are more sure of the OP's preferences than he is ;) If he wants to study public finance, the PF faculty at Michigan are better. You're also not correct that Michigan has high attrition rates. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think our arguing is of much use to the OP, and we're clearly looking at this from very different perspectives. I'm comparing the two schools for someone who wants to study tax policy and PF, and wants to teach in a department of economics, since that's the information the OP gave us. Either way, the OP has two great options and I wish him good luck wherever he winds up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicecon Posted April 14, 2010 Author Share Posted April 14, 2010 So I wouldn't rule out a b-school department like Booth where faculty does research in applied micro, but my only concern was that most of the placements were *finance* professors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicecon Posted April 14, 2010 Author Share Posted April 14, 2010 either way... thanks for all the input!! I think I have a much better grasp on the situation than I did before! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palikari Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 The placement list is missing Harvard (http://www.chicagobooth.edu/phd/phdgradsjobs.pdf) and Cornell (this year.) UBC and Washington are pretty good, I think so are the median placements. According to this (http://lsa.umich.edu/UMICH/econ/Home/Grad%20Study/PhD/Incoming%20&%20Current%20Students/survival07.pdf) Michigan has fairly high attrition rates by my standards, or at least they did. Maybe things have changed, you would know better than me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asquare Posted April 14, 2010 Share Posted April 14, 2010 According to this (http://lsa.umich.edu/UMICH/econ/Home/Grad%20Study/PhD/Incoming%20&%20Current%20Students/survival07.pdf) Michigan has fairly high attrition rates by my standards, or at least they did. Maybe things have changed, you would know better than me. I'm pretty sure the survival guide doesn't have any information at all about attrition. It has prelim pass rates -- under the "old" system where people had up to 4 attempts to take each exam. The pass rate on a single exam is not the (non)-attrition rate and never has been. Since I've been here, fewer than 10 percent of students have failed their final (2nd) attempt at the prelims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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