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gkhn
11-13-2010, 10:49 PM
Hi guys! I consider applying to top10.Please evaluate my profile.

Undergrad:
Metu(middle east technical university).Among one of the best universities in Turkey.(medium of instruction is English)
Econ CGPA:4.0/4.0(Valedictorian),double major in math CGPA 3.86/4.0(but not able to complete it because math department want us to complete all courses a typical math student should take ,which is impossible.)

Econ Courses:In addition to standard courses(micro theory,econometrics etc.), I have taken Mathematical Econ 1-2(AA-AA).(Simon Blume stuff)Now, I am taking Advanced Macro, Seminar etc.

Math Courses:Calculus 1-2-3-4(all AA except for cal 3-CB),real analysis(BA),Differential equations(AA),Linear algebra 1(AA),Basic linear algebra(AA).Now, I am taking Point set topology and measure theory.

Standart tests:
Toefl:103,GREQ760,V530,AW3.5

Teaching experience:
TA for Micro Theory and econometrics courses.

LOR:
Generally, I expect very good LORs as I ranked first in the department.Moreover, my recommenders know me very well.One of my recommenders graduated from Stanford, the other one graduated from Upenn.

Schools:Yale,Princeton,MIT,NWU,Cornell,JHU,Toulous e,Minnesota,UCLA,Upenn,NYU,Columbia,UBC.


Thanks a lot!!

petecheese
11-13-2010, 10:58 PM
Your profile looks really good. The only worry you should have is probably your GRE Q. But if you have strong LORS, i am sure some top 10 schools will look past it

gkhn
11-13-2010, 11:05 PM
Thanks a lot.My gre Q is the product of bad luck..I am having nightmares because of that score for several nights.I hope LORS and Math grades help me to compensate for this low score.What about AW?Is it considered very low ,and What is the probability of being eliminated on the basis of AW score or Q score? Thanks.

petecheese
11-13-2010, 11:16 PM
I don't think AWA will matter if you did the TOEFL and have good LOR connections. a 4 would have been better than a 3.5 but i don't think it will kill you (not sure). You should ask your profs. At any rate do you have enough time to take the GRE again? Btw are you applying Toulouse M2 eco math?

gkhn
11-13-2010, 11:27 PM
I do not have time to take GRE again for various reasons.My Toefl writing score is 24/30.I don't know whether it is good enough to compensate for low AWA score.My connections are good.One of my LOR writers gave me 100 out of 100 for my econometrics term paper.By the way, I consider applying Toulouse M2 econmath in case of rejections from Top US programs.

buzios
11-14-2010, 09:22 PM
Is it considered very low ,and What is the probability of being eliminated on the basis of AW score or Q score? Thanks.

Pretty high. I think the 760 Q is going to hurt you a lot, especially at the schools you're applying to. With the exception of maybe Cornell, UMN, JHU and NYU (and UBC/Toulouse~conjecture), I'd be surprised if you don't get autorejected at the other schools on your list.

If you're connections are, in fact, very good, then this might not be as much of a problem at some schools, but that's a gamble. A low GRE Quant is a really unfortunate hole to have in your profile.

If there is NO WAY you can retake the GRE, I'd suggest maybe talking to your professors about this.


I hope LORS and Math grades help me to compensate for this low score.

LORs and Math grades can help compensate for this, but that's only in the case that your application makes it to that stage of the process.

gkhn
11-15-2010, 01:42 PM
I'd be surprised if you don't get autorejected at the other schools on your list.I do not know whether after some threshold it is important to have high GRE Q at least for some schools excluding MIT,Princeton. For example, Yale states that 760 Q is minimum.This means that,for me at least, my application will not be autorejected at YALE. Does Q 800 play a serious role in admission process besides first cut-off? For me, it is not realistic.(maybe I am fooling myself,I do not know).

buzios
11-15-2010, 06:20 PM
I do not know whether after some threshold it is important to have high GRE Q at least for some schools excluding MIT,Princeton. For example, Yale states that 760 Q is minimum.This means that,for me at least, my application will not be autorejected at YALE. Does Q 800 play a serious role in admission process besides first cut-off? For me, it is not realistic.(maybe I am fooling myself,I do not know).

I'm sorry, I believe i was a little rash with the term autorejected. I don't think that's true. I was planning on changing that.

Cutoffs aren't that stringent at most of your schools, so i really don't know what I was thinking. But it will still play quite strongly against you. You're correct that 760 is the minimum in most cases, and I think Princeton doesn't have a minimum at all.

But again, there have been a lot of people with otherwise excellent profiles who were completed shafted because of low GRE Q score. They were probably not autorejected, but i was under the impression that you would need a really REALLY top notch profile to overcome a <780 gre quant. The way I see it is that when you have a set of otherwise homogeneous applicants, adcoms use any deficiency to separate the pack. I don't think the threshold would be the minimum accepted score. It's probably something along the lines of a 780. So it's probably harder to distinguish between two people with a 780 and 800 gre quant, than between two with a 760 and an 800 quant.

So your profile, although definitely stellar, might be pooled together with a number of other applicants who have stellar applications. In which case your 760 Q will probably definitely play against you.

This is all conjecture though. But I'd still definitely recommend a retake if you're only gunning for the top 10.

Regardless though, good luck this cycle.

Canuckonomist
11-15-2010, 06:52 PM
It's really hard to say how well you'll do, without knowing how the adcoms view METU. If it's like most other non-top-40 non-U.S universities, not having a master's AND having a GREQ<770 is going to be a kick in the pants. It's a shame that there is not much you can do now, but I would say that MIT, Princeton, Yale, UPenn, Columbia, and NWU (and perhaps UMN if your interest is econometrics-related... you didn't mention your interests) are going to be (perhaps very) long shots. I imagine you're applying to UBC MA. If application $$ is a concern, I'd drop 1 or 2 (maybe even JHU, if you were considering that your safety) and apply to Queen's MA, and either UWO or UToronto MAs. You've got a good profile, and a year in a master's would allow you to take the GRE again, and potentially end up at those top schools. Don't accept lower-ranked programs just because you did less-than-stellar on some ridiculous standardized test.

I tend to be blunt, but the message is more important than how I couch it. That said, I'm just one student, so I don't know everything (or very much, in the grand scheme of things,) about your chances.

Canuck

Osmanov
11-16-2010, 04:03 PM
gkhn, I wish I could say the contrary but the situation does not seem very bright. Your grades are perfect, but adcom may not view your grades as a high achievement since you got them from a university in Middle East. Difficulty of obtaining top grades from a US university and a Middle East university may not be equal(maybe that's reflected in your low GRE quantitative score). Your AW score is another drawback.

Still, the level of courses you took are quite high(like real analysis, mathematical econ, etc). My guess is aiming between top 20-30 is reasonable for you. Of course, going to a MA program is another option.

petecheese
11-16-2010, 04:37 PM
[QUOTE=Osmanov;824431]Difficulty of obtaining top grades from a US university and a Middle East university may not be equal(maybe that's reflected in your low GRE quantitative score). Your AW score is another drawback.

If this isn't a generalization then i do not know what is.
The US suffers from extreme grade inflation. I am not aware that the top universities in the Middle east suffer from this. In fact, it is the exact opposite.

Osmanov
11-16-2010, 04:51 PM
Sure, I also agree with that. However, it is uncertain that whether adcom members will consider this or not. My view is US academicians tend do underrate non-US institutions in general.

gkhn
11-16-2010, 06:21 PM
Thanks for all your comments and interest. First of all, it is absolutely not easy to get good grades at METU. Normally, person who ranked first in economics department have a GPA between 3.8-3.9.Gpa of 4.0 and success in Math is very hard and it is very rare.For example, a girl with a CGPA 4.00 in econ and CGPA 4.00 in math got acceptance from all universities she applied.(Stanford,yale,princeton etc).This was 4 years ago actually.By the way, Faruk Gül at Princeton, Muhammet Yıldız,Daron Acemoğlu at MIT, Efe ok(B.Sc Metu) at NYU are all familiar with schools in Turkey.(and many other academics in other universities).This does not mean that I can get acceptance, but at least they can understand that my Q is the result of bad luck. Moreover, I don't think each international profile is only evaluated by US academicians.Logically, they ask their counterparts who are more familiar with the country.

Osmanov
11-16-2010, 06:27 PM
Ok, I understand but isn't it possible that you are overevaluating your university? Many people do that actually. What I mean is, you can never find somebody saying "My department is too easy.", even if this is the truth. Of course, I am not making any claims about METU, rather I am pointing a common mistake.

gkhn
11-16-2010, 07:01 PM
Yes, you are right.Nobody says that my department is easy.But, what I think is that you are underestimating METU.I do not want to discuss the quality of education METU offers as I am sure of it.Generally,our good students are capable of being successful in USA universities.(we have students at NYU,Columbia,Chicago,Maryland,Princeton,Minnesota, Johns hopkins,NWU,UCLA,LSE(some finished their Ph.D.s).I know who they are not just fooling you.This should give the one an idea about things you can do with your B.Sc. or M.Sc earned at METU.Normally, my logic says me that every country has its own best university(in terms of quality of education) regardless of world rankings.(Because these rankings do not reflect the quality of education in general, at least for undergrad education).For example, I do not know the best university in Korea but I am sure that they have one.Their students have the capacity to do such kind of things maybe much better things.

Osmanov
11-16-2010, 07:13 PM
Sure, I guess the admission committee knows this best since they are experienced in it. I wish the best for you then. Good luck.:)

gkhn
11-16-2010, 07:21 PM
Thanks for your comments and interest. :)

gkhn
11-16-2010, 07:27 PM
I do not know how to respond a private message containing abusive language.Are you a human Osmanov?What is your problem?

Osmanov
11-16-2010, 07:29 PM
Man, calm down. I don't think I've been abusive, but if I got you angry, I apologize. And when it comes to issue of humanity, yes, I think so.

Anyway, people's ideas may differ and probably I was a little pessimistic about your choices. Rethinking under the light of what you told, I think it is a high possibility that you will get into a top 15 Ph.D program.

petecheese
11-16-2010, 09:02 PM
Woot woot. Drama already and admissions haven't come out yet.

Econ2011
11-16-2010, 09:43 PM
I am not sure if your application will go to the trash just because of 760 in Q. If it does, it is just your bad luck! I read somewhere that Columbia gives a strong emphasis on AWA score and you have a 3.5. Do a little bit of research into schools and their preferences.

I see all the good signs for you. Go ahead and apply to any school you want. Marginal cost is pretty low and decisions can be pretty random. If I were you, I would take MIT and Princeton out though. On a different note, I think you have to take the advice you get out here with a grain of salt and stop arguing as that just reflects poorly on you. If you are confident about your chances, there is no need to seek advice here in the first place. :)

econornot
11-16-2010, 09:59 PM
Chill guys...

@gkhn: From a objective viewpoint, I feel that in whatever negative comments that somebody has given you, you always come up with a rather strong defense about your case and how it should not affect you negatively. So I can't help but think that you probably have already made up your mind that you will definitely hit some top 5 or top 10 schools that you have stated, and you will only listen to people who tell you that your flaws are negligible and will not affect you at all. (Of course, I might very well be wrong on this.)

My personal take is that I think your GRE Q will really "kill" you for the top 10 schools, and I don't think the rest of your profile is going to salvage it much. However, I do think that your profile is really really good, and it's just damn silly that your application might just end up in the autorejection pile due to some stupid test. My advice is that if you do not get into a top 10 school (which will be my prediction if you do not recitfy the GRE Q before application), you should NOT accept anything that is ranked much lower. I will be very very surprised if any of the master program does not accept you, so go do a master first and use that year to improve your GRE, and I believe you will be a very very competitive candidate for a top 5 or top 10 schools in the next cycle. (Of course, if you do hit a very good school, then all is good:) )

More interestingly, do keep the forum informed about your application result because I think your case will be a perfect sample to tell us how much harm a bad GRE Q can cause to a good profile, and perhaps even shed some light about whether the "myth" that any profile with GRE Q <780 will almost surely end up in the autorejection pile immediately.

Cheers!

urray
11-16-2010, 11:04 PM
Would you mind clarifying your actual degree a bit? If I understood correctly you will get a bachelors degree in economics from Metu but no math degree. If that is the case I think you chances at top 10 might be a tad lower as well. Metu is great in maths and any type of engineering but its econ department is second tier in Turkey, and if adcoms know Metu they would know that as well. I apologize in advance if I understood you incorrectly

gkhn
11-17-2010, 12:18 AM
thanks for all comments and advices.
@Econ2011,@econornot:I am well aware of the fact that my awa and Q score is pretty bad ,but it is better than having bad grades in math,econ courses. Actually, I think that it is very hard for me to get acceptance from top 10 with such scores excluding NYU,UCLA.On the other hand, I do not want to go to lower ranked schools.This is the reason why I am applying for top10,15.Not just because of the fact that I think everything is just pretty well with my profile.If I cannot make it to get acceptance from top 10, I want to do a master,and try my chance for the next cycle.

As a note, I have learned recently that osmanov is a guy studying at METU and my colleague.He tries to be funny in his own way.He said that he would sabotage my topic with his other fake usernames. :)

invariance
11-17-2010, 01:41 AM
I would say good luck! All we need is only one acceptance!!

gkhn
11-23-2010, 01:53 PM
I would say good luck! All we need is only one acceptance!! thanks for your reply.Yes, this is exactly what I and everyone want.:).Finally, I retook the GRE again despite many obstacles.I got 780Q 550V? Is thıs result put my application in jeopardy as I got 760Q for first try and 780Q for second?In considering all of these, do you know how schools evaluate the GRE if one retake the gre twice?For example, stanford states that they will take the hıghest score for each part.Any comment..Thanks in advance..

Osmanov
11-23-2010, 02:02 PM
What is your AWA score? I think this score will help you to get over the cut-off.

enginecon
11-24-2010, 01:10 AM
Metu(middle east technical university).Among one of the best universities in Turkey.(medium of instruction is English)
Econ CGPA:4.0/4.0(Valedictorian),double major in math CGPA 3.86/4.0
Standart tests:
Toefl:103,GREQ760,V530,AW3.5

Schools:Yale,Princeton,MIT,NWU,Cornell,JHU,Toulous e,Minnesota,UCLA,Upenn,NYU,Columbia,UBC.


Look I am not going to sugar-coat anything for you. I will make it really really clear b/c I think I can be more helpful to YOU that way.
I don't know much about the admission standards of Toul and UBC. As for the others,

YOU *WILL* BE REJECTED BY ALL OF THEM!!

Sorry to be blunt, but it seems your so-called advisors are not advising you well, if at all. If you think that a profile including GREQ760,V530,AW3.5 is admissible at MIT, Princeton (and the others) you simply do not know what you are doing.

You need to read about the characteristic of ADMITTED applicants to those programs, and generally learn more about the US admission situation.

As a starting point, read the following post, as well as another linked inside; most apply to YOU as well:
http://www.urch.com/forums/phd-economics/126805-profile-really-confused-guy-urgent-eval-pls-phd.html#post825292

petecheese
11-24-2010, 02:03 AM
Look I am not going to sugar-coat anything for you. I will make it really really clear b/c I think I can be more helpful to YOU that way.
I don't know much about the admission standards of Toul and UBC. As for the others,

YOU *WILL* BE REJECTED BY ALL OF THEM!!

Sorry to be blunt, but it seems your so-called advisors are not advising you well, if at all. If you think that a profile including GREQ760,V530,AW3.5 is admissible at MIT, Princeton (and the others) you simply do not know what you are doing.

You need to read about the characteristic of ADMITTED applicants to those programs, and generally learn more about the US admission situation.

As a starting point, read the following post, as well as another linked inside; most apply to YOU as well:
http://www.urch.com/forums/phd-economics/126805-profile-really-confused-guy-urgent-eval-pls-phd.html#post825292

And you are basing all this on?

buzios
11-24-2010, 03:46 AM
Uh I suppose we shouldn't dwell on this thread as a topic of contention given that OP has already retaken the GRE.

gkhn
11-24-2010, 09:09 AM
Look I am not going to sugar-coat anything for you. I will make it really really clear b/c I think I can be more helpful to YOU that way.
I don't know much about the admission standards of Toul and UBC. As for the others,

YOU *WILL* BE REJECTED BY ALL OF THEM!!

Sorry to be blunt, but it seems your so-called advisors are not advising you well, if at all. If you think that a profile including GREQ760,V530,AW3.5 is admissible at MIT, Princeton (and the others) you simply do not know what you are doing.

You need to read about the characteristic of ADMITTED applicants to those programs, and generally learn more about the US admission situation.

As a starting point, read the following post, as well as another linked inside; most apply to YOU as well:
http://www.urch.com/forums/phd-economics/126805-profile-really-confused-guy-urgent-eval-pls-phd.html#post825292

I RETOOK the GRE and got 780Q 550V, AWA?.Do you think it is not enough?Thanks for any opinions in advance.By the way,I know that MIT and Princeton would be long shots even if I got 800Q.I just want to try,and wait. :)Furthermore, I do not think that I will be eliminated on the basis of GRE after this retake.Now,in my opinion, it depends on my other qualifications, am I too optimistic?.If I get rejection, I don't think it will be because of the GRE.(given that I will have reasonable AWA score)

enginecon
11-24-2010, 09:34 AM
And you are basing all this on?
on "the characteristic of ADMITTED applicants to those programs".

gkhn
11-24-2010, 10:01 AM
Any opinion about my profile after the retake?

enginecon
11-24-2010, 10:32 AM
I RETOOK the GRE and got 780Q 550V, AWA?.Do you think it is not enough?
Sorry but before I spend more time in your case, you should follow my suggestions on the previous post. Have you CAREFULLY read the posts I recommended to you before? Have you found information on the characteristics of ADMITTED apps to the programs you are targeting? If you have not, then do so.
As additional help I will paste right here some information given before:
=============
I simply point you to the faq section posted by Oklahoma ( http://www.ou.edu/cas/econ/phdfaq.pdf ), a program which ... won't even make the US top 100, or world top 200 for some measures....
they indicate that "Based on the previous four years, median GRE scores were approximately 590 for verbal and 780 for the quantitative."
Your v&q GRE would seem to be only slightly higher than the median for OK PhD admits.
Why are students with GRE-Q over 780, and GRE-V over 590 in such a relatively lowly ranked program? Probably because they tried to get admitted in higher-ranked programs but couldn't. Think about that.

The AWA score is not as well established as the other two, and their use/weight varies among programs. But many top programs do mention such scores, which suggest they use them to a degree... your 3.5 AW score is in the BOTTOM quarter of all scores, which probably means in the bottom 10% or so among applicants to top econ programs... It would be absolutely shocking that a applicant with such score would get an admit from Harvard (or similarly ranked schools).
===========================
What part of the above you find difficult to understand?

P.S. What percentage of economics GRE takers get a perfect 800 in the Q-GRE?

gkhn
11-24-2010, 10:45 AM
Sorry but before I spend more time in your case, you should follow my suggestions on the previous post. Have you CAREFULLY read the posts I recommended to you before? Have you found information on the characteristics of ADMITTED apps to the programs you are targeting? If you have not, then do so.
As additional help I will paste right here some information given before:
=============
I simply point you to the faq section posted by Oklahoma ( http://www.ou.edu/cas/econ/phdfaq.pdf ), a program which ... won't even make the US top 100, or world top 200 for some measures....
they indicate that "Based on the previous four years, median GRE scores were approximately 590 for verbal and 780 for the quantitative."
Your v&q GRE would seem to be only slightly higher than the median for OK PhD admits.
Why are students with GRE-Q over 780, and GRE-V over 590 in such a relatively lowly ranked program? Probably because they tried to get admitted in higher-ranked programs but couldn't. Think about that.

The AWA score is not as well established as the other two, and their use/weight varies among programs. But many top programs do mention such scores, which suggest they use them to a degree... your 3.5 AW score is in the BOTTOM quarter of all scores, which probably means in the bottom 10% or so among applicants to top econ programs... It would be absolutely shocking that a applicant with such score would get an admit from Harvard (or similarly ranked schools).
===========================
What part of the above you find difficult to understand?

P.S. What percentage of economics GRE takers get a perfect 800 in the Q-GRE?

First of all, thanks for your advice.I have read the posts you send.I am not sure but it seems tome that you are overemphasizing the importance of GRE Q.You can find people with 780Q in top programs, according to you, they should not be there. (On the other hand, you are right about your assertions regarding AWA (I expect 4.0 at least.))I am not a USA citizen or native speaker.Therefore, is it reasonable to compare international's verbal score to the median verbal score of the overall program.Additionally, GRE-Q does not differentiate people's true math ability(theorem-proof ability I mean).Therefore,comparing gre-Q of the candidates from oklahama is not relevant.Can you give any info about the math backgrounds of the candidates admitted to Oklahama.Then, your argument will be stronger.

Can you prove that candidates admitted to Oklahama have so strong background in mathematics that their rejection from top programs is only the result of their GRE scores?(I mean they took real analysis,topology etc)

Moreover, the fact that oklahama have such gre scores is that GRE measures your college level math ability.Therefore, you can score well even if you don't know anything particular about economics,or pure mathematics.

petecheese
11-24-2010, 01:41 PM
Sorry but before I spend more time in your case, you should follow my suggestions on the previous post. Have you CAREFULLY read the posts I recommended to you before? Have you found information on the characteristics of ADMITTED apps to the programs you are targeting? If you have not, then do so.
As additional help I will paste right here some information given before:
=============
I simply point you to the faq section posted by Oklahoma ( http://www.ou.edu/cas/econ/phdfaq.pdf ), a program which ... won't even make the US top 100, or world top 200 for some measures....
they indicate that "Based on the previous four years, median GRE scores were approximately 590 for verbal and 780 for the quantitative."
Your v&q GRE would seem to be only slightly higher than the median for OK PhD admits.
Why are students with GRE-Q over 780, and GRE-V over 590 in such a relatively lowly ranked program? Probably because they tried to get admitted in higher-ranked programs but couldn't. Think about that.

The AWA score is not as well established as the other two, and their use/weight varies among programs. But many top programs do mention such scores, which suggest they use them to a degree... your 3.5 AW score is in the BOTTOM quarter of all scores, which probably means in the bottom 10% or so among applicants to top econ programs... It would be absolutely shocking that a applicant with such score would get an admit from Harvard (or similarly ranked schools).
===========================
What part of the above you find difficult to understand?

P.S. What percentage of economics GRE takers get a perfect 800 in the Q-GRE?


Worst and most unproductive advice i have ever seen and in such a condescending tone. Sometimes i really hate this forum

Osmanov
11-24-2010, 02:06 PM
Sure he has right to tell what he thinks. But I completely disagree with him. By April, we will see where gkhn will be admitted.
By the way, gkhn, what about your SOP?

gkhn
11-24-2010, 02:18 PM
By the way, gkhn, what about your SOP?

It is not very unusual I guess.As you may expect, I explained how I become interested in micro theory,game theory.Furthermore, I cited some of the papers that I find interesting.

buzios
11-24-2010, 06:52 PM
Sorry but before I spend more time in your case, you should follow my suggestions on the previous post. Have you CAREFULLY read the posts I recommended to you before? Have you found information on the characteristics of ADMITTED apps to the programs you are targeting? If you have not, then do so.
As additional help I will paste right here some information given before:
=============
I simply point you to the faq section posted by Oklahoma ( http://www.ou.edu/cas/econ/phdfaq.pdf ), a program which ... won't even make the US top 100, or world top 200 for some measures....
they indicate that "Based on the previous four years, median GRE scores were approximately 590 for verbal and 780 for the quantitative."
Your v&q GRE would seem to be only slightly higher than the median for OK PhD admits.
Why are students with GRE-Q over 780, and GRE-V over 590 in such a relatively lowly ranked program? Probably because they tried to get admitted in higher-ranked programs but couldn't. Think about that.

The AWA score is not as well established as the other two, and their use/weight varies among programs. But many top programs do mention such scores, which suggest they use them to a degree... your 3.5 AW score is in the BOTTOM quarter of all scores, which probably means in the bottom 10% or so among applicants to top econ programs... It would be absolutely shocking that a applicant with such score would get an admit from Harvard (or similarly ranked schools).
===========================
What part of the above you find difficult to understand?

P.S. What percentage of economics GRE takers get a perfect 800 in the Q-GRE?

Ok, it's more the tone of this post that I have a problem with. But regardless, it seems like your advice, enginecon, is just recycled TM advice delivered with a harsher tone.

But, in any case, looking at TM ADMITS over the last few years:
Princeton: 1 with a 780Q, 1 with a 760Q , 3 with a 790Q out of 20 total admits.
Mit: 1 with a 780, 3 with 790 out of 19 total admits.

So the GRE Q criterion is definitely easier to overcome than you're making it out to be.


I simply point you to the faq section posted by Oklahoma ( http://www.ou.edu/cas/econ/phdfaq.pdf ), a program which ... won't even make the US top 100, or world top 200 for some measures....
they indicate that "Based on the previous four years, median GRE scores were approximately 590 for verbal and 780 for the quantitative."
Your v&q GRE would seem to be only slightly higher than the median for OK PhD admits.
Why are students with GRE-Q over 780, and GRE-V over 590 in such a relatively lowly ranked program? Probably because they tried to get admitted in higher-ranked programs but couldn't. Think about that

I doubt students with GRE scores around that mark had to settle for Oklahoma as a result. The reason GRE medians are so high up the rankings is not simply because adcoms cast aside anyone who doesn't have a near perfect score. It's simply because people who are competitive at those schools just happen to have scored that well on the GRE. The GRE Quant tests very simple content, content that few econ PHD applicants should find hard. So even schools way down the rankings should have applicants who scored high on the quantitative part.



The AWA score is not as well established as the other two, and their use/weight varies among programs. But many top programs do mention such scores, which suggest they use them to a degree... your 3.5 AW score is in the BOTTOM quarter of all scores, which probably means in the bottom 10% or so among applicants to top econ programs... It would be absolutely shocking that a applicant with such score would get an admit from Harvard (or similarly ranked schools).

It's actually better established than the verbal at top schools, but regardless. The AWA score will likely affect the OPs chances of funding, or getting a TAship. But i don't think it's going to be much of a deciding factor in his admissions. In addition, he also RETOOK it. So let's wait till he reposts his scores, before we condemn him to failure?

I also commented that the OPs prospects were bad this cycle. But he retook the GRE, and a 780 is more than enough for any school. I would strongly suggest that the OP disregards this post.

FutureEconomist
11-24-2010, 07:07 PM
Aha, take easy, man! GRE is just one of measures. I think gkhn will be admitted in a decent school in April, good luck!

enginecon
11-25-2010, 01:26 AM
But, in any case, looking at TM ADMITS over the last few years:
Princeton: 1 with a 780Q, 1 with a 760Q , 3 with a 790Q out of 20 total admits.
Mit: 1 with a 780, 3 with 790 out of 19 total admits.
So the GRE Q criterion is definitely easier to overcome than you're making it out to be.

First, I am not basing myself on anonymous posts whose authenticity is impossible to verify, but rather on descriptions of ADMITTED/ENTERING classes provided by the SCHOOLS themselves, and/or other "official" sources... Nevertheless, it is in fact possible to overcome lower GRE scores, WHEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO COUNTERBALANCE them... like for example, a high GPA earned at a WORLD CLASS institution... say, an Ivy or equivalent elsewhere (the OP's uni is nowhere near that level, nowhere)...or perhaps a paper forthcoming at a solid international journal... or something else... the OP mentioned NOTHING like that... yes, he has a high GPA, but do you REALLY expect the ADCOMs of the KIND of programs he lists to take his GPA at face value or to "discount" it significantly when comparing it to the others from the Ivies, the top state schools, etc?...



I also commented that the OPs prospects were bad this cycle. But he retook the GRE, and a 780 is more than enough for any school. I would strongly suggest that the OP disregards this post.
Suggest what you want, but you are given the OP a VERY BAD advise... he is only applying to top20 programs or so (mostly top 10) which is a HORRIBLE STRATEGY for someone with his credentials... Unbelievably foolish... but whatever, it is obvious that he has LONG made up his mind....he shall know in due time.

whatdoido
11-25-2010, 03:00 AM
First, I am not basing myself on anonymous posts whose authenticity is impossible to verify, but rather on descriptions of ADMITTED/ENTERING classes provided by the SCHOOLS themselves, and/or other "official" sources... Nevertheless, it is in fact possible to overcome lower GRE scores, WHEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO COUNTERBALANCE them... like for example, a high GPA earned at a WORLD CLASS institution... say, an Ivy or equivalent elsewhere (the OP's uni is nowhere near that level, nowhere)...or perhaps a paper forthcoming at a solid international journal... or something else... the OP mentioned NOTHING like that... yes, he has a high GPA, but do you REALLY expect the ADCOMs of the KIND of programs he lists to take his GPA at face value or to "discount" it significantly when comparing it to the others from the Ivies, the top state schools, etc?...


Suggest what you want, but you are given the OP a VERY BAD advise... he is only applying to top20 programs or so (mostly top 10) which is a HORRIBLE STRATEGY for someone with his credentials... Unbelievably foolish... but whatever, it is obvious that he has LONG made up his mind....he shall know in due time.

I think, although I'm certainly not an expert, that your evaluation of his profile is a little off. I'm assuming he has three LORs even though he only listed where 2 of them received their PhDs, and he said that they would be very good. Being first in any decent department, which I'm sure his is, is absolutely an achievement to proud of and you should try not to minimize the work he did to get there. He has a great GPA and fine GRE along with a nice amount of math courses. His profile is, in my opinion, not top 5 material, unless there is some research experience or something else being hidden. However, I do believe he has some kind of shot at the rest of the top 10 and an even better shot at JHU and Cornell, but again, my knowledge on this stuff is fairly limited. I also think, although I don't mean to impose my ideas upon you, that if your not sure about something, then you shouldn't be so dogmatic in your assessment of the OP. Besides, just because you think he may be delusional about his chances, being so blunt isn't going to help anyone.

buzios
11-25-2010, 03:15 AM
First, I am not basing myself on anonymous posts whose authenticity is impossible to verify, but rather on descriptions of ADMITTED/ENTERING classes provided by the SCHOOLS themselves, and/or other "official" sources... Nevertheless, it is in fact possible to overcome lower GRE scores, WHEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO COUNTERBALANCE them... like for example, a high GPA earned at a WORLD CLASS institution... say, an Ivy or equivalent elsewhere (the OP's uni is nowhere near that level, nowhere)...or perhaps a paper forthcoming at a solid international journal... or something else... the OP mentioned NOTHING like that... yes, he has a high GPA, but do you REALLY expect the ADCOMs of the KIND of programs he lists to take his GPA at face value or to "discount" it significantly when comparing it to the others from the Ivies, the top state schools, etc?...


Suggest what you want, but you are given the OP a VERY BAD advise... he is only applying to top20 programs or so (mostly top 10) which is a HORRIBLE STRATEGY for someone with his credentials... Unbelievably foolish... but whatever, it is obvious that he has LONG made up his mind....he shall know in due time.

Ok, I'd really rather not dwell on this. But:

1) The OP can apply to whichever schools he wishes to. Applying to only the top 20 is only a bad strategy if the OP is set on immediately entering a PHD program. Given that he is applying to masters programs as well, it is clear that the OP has his heart set on the top 10, and is applying to masters programs as a backup. Applying to safeties with such preferences would be "unbelievably foolish."
2) There is no need to "counterbalance" a 780 GRE quant score. There is a minimal difference between the perceived ability of two candidates one with a 780 gre quant, the other with an 800. This is where THE REST OF THE PROFILE comes in handy. The gre score is used as a cutoff, one that the OP need not worry about. From there it comes down to his GPA, LORs, etc.
3) I never said that the OP would be a shoe-in for the top 10, i didn't even say that his chances were good. I just said that your assessment of his chances, based solely on his GRE scores (which are, in fact, well within the criteria for admission) was incorrect.
4) I don't believe I was giving the OP any advice at all. Outside of advising him to disregard your bad advice. Your posts were not helpful and were condescending, in addition to being incorrect. I was just alerting the OP to this, although, in hindsight, I imagine it must have been quite obvious.

gkhn
11-25-2010, 11:00 AM
First, I am not basing myself on anonymous posts whose authenticity is impossible to verify, but rather on descriptions of ADMITTED/ENTERING classes provided by the SCHOOLS themselves, and/or other "official" sources... Nevertheless, it is in fact possible to overcome lower GRE scores, WHEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO COUNTERBALANCE them... like for example, a high GPA earned at a WORLD CLASS institution... say, an Ivy or equivalent elsewhere (the OP's uni is nowhere near that level, nowhere)...or perhaps a paper forthcoming at a solid international journal... or something else... the OP mentioned NOTHING like that... yes, he has a high GPA, but do you REALLY expect the ADCOMs of the KIND of programs he lists to take his GPA at face value or to "discount" it significantly when comparing it to the others from the Ivies, the top state schools, etc?...


Suggest what you want, but you are given the OP a VERY BAD advise... he is only applying to top20 programs or so (mostly top 10) which is a HORRIBLE STRATEGY for someone with his credentials... Unbelievably foolish... but whatever, it is obvious that he has LONG made up his mind....he shall know in due time.

I do not want to comment on the tone of the posts as I want to get advice from people.However, in considering a post like that and many others by enginecon, I want to say something about it. Before saying "Unbelievably foolish", you are advised to read the PREVIOUS posts about my UNBELIEVABLY FOOLISH strategy. Moreover, I think being blunt is very different than being offensive,and harsh.On the other hand, of course, you are free to say what you think,but keep in mind that your tone and style give a clue of what kind of person you are.(Maybe, you(enginecon) are right or wrong in your assertions regarding my profile.That's not the point.)

petecheese
11-25-2010, 11:52 AM
First, I am not basing myself on anonymous posts whose authenticity is impossible to verify, but rather on descriptions of ADMITTED/ENTERING classes provided by the SCHOOLS themselves, and/or other "official" sources... Nevertheless, it is in fact possible to overcome lower GRE scores, WHEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO COUNTERBALANCE them... like for example, a high GPA earned at a WORLD CLASS institution... say, an Ivy or equivalent elsewhere (the OP's uni is nowhere near that level, nowhere)...or perhaps a paper forthcoming at a solid international journal... or something else... the OP mentioned NOTHING like that... yes, he has a high GPA, but do you REALLY expect the ADCOMs of the KIND of programs he lists to take his GPA at face value or to "discount" it significantly when comparing it to the others from the Ivies, the top state schools, etc?...



Just to disprove your EXTREMELY WEAK THEORY (i'm using your tone now, bringing myself down a level). He is the first in his class from the strongest school in the middle East, so to me that is a very strong candidate seeing that his school is well known worldwide and has sent many people to the top institutions ( I am familiar with his institution). My counter-proof is the fact that the top 5 in my school which is presumably the 2nd or 3rd best school in the middle East "ALL" (and with no exception) went to top 10 schools last year. In fact over the years we have people entering the top 20 at a constant rate (2 to 3 people). Furthermore some of these people didn't even have the best of grades 3.5ish but they DID have Excellent LORs which is why it has been said and it is true. "LORS are almost everything especially for International students". And a phone-call from a famous professor in your institution (it doesn't matter if he is famous worldwide) almost guarantees you a spot in his Alma matter or any other university he has connections in. You may have not have heard of my school or the OP's school. But adcoms are familiar with the best schools in Middle East, South America etc... because they are few and far between and they have a HISTORY of sending people to the top places, plus believe it or not they are top notch places where earning grades is extremely hard. (only 2 people in the whole faculty probably get above 3.8).
My advice to you is to stop blabbering about knowing what adcoms want, because the decisions are mostly random noise

To the OP: There is a simple solution to your problems. Go to your advisors and see where people with your profile have placed before.

enginecon
11-26-2010, 12:08 AM
He is the first in his class from the strongest school in the middle East, so to me that is a very strong candidate seeing that his school is well known worldwide and has sent many people to the top institutions ( I am familiar with his institution).
METU strongest in the middle East? well known worldwide? REALYYY?
Let's see what the rankings say... I know that ranking institutions at the global level is tough, and many criteria are possible... but most agree that research output is paramount... and there are some reasonably objective ways to measure research output...So what does the Tilburg's ranking say about METU research prowess? Well, counting publications in a selection of "core" economics journals in the period 2004-2008 METU is ranked....
drum roll....
tied for number 7 in.... TURKEY!!!
And, number 3 in.... Ankara (its city)!!!
with a total number of publications in core journals of....
.....
.....
exactly....
.....
ONE (1) (not per faculty, total, for the entire 4 year period).

Strongest in the midle east? It's not even strongest in the city of Ankara... Sorry.

Yes, I know this is only one possible ranking criterion, but it is a reasonable and objective one... and frankly, an institution "known worldwide" should definite do much better in this particular measure...

So, any ADCOM in its right mind cannot possibly take a 4.0 GPA from METU at "face value" and assume it is the same as a 4.0 from Princeton, Michigan, CMU, or even a modest US state university... These schools produce a lot more than one single paper every four year.



My counter-proof is the fact that the top 5 in my school which is presumably the 2nd or 3rd best school in the middle East "ALL" (and with no exception) went to top 10 schools last year. In fact over the years we have people entering the top 20 at a constant rate (2 to 3 people). Furthermore some of these people didn't even have the best of grades 3.5ish but they DID have Excellent LORs which is why it has been said and it is true.
Well considering how few positions are available in the top 10, or even the top 20 (e.g. Harvard has only about 30), and a lot of those go to graduates from top US and European schools, it seems that your school is taking a disproportionate share of them...maybe that is why is so difficult for other people to get in... your school is making it too hard for graduates from all the Ivies, Berkeley, Michigan, Caltech, Northwestern, Chicago, Oxford, TX, UCLA, etc., etc., etc... Your school is probably better represented in the top 20 than any of these fine schools.

On the other hand I will remain focused on verifiable information.

buzios
11-26-2010, 12:22 AM
METU strongest in the middle East? well known worldwide? REALYYY?
Let's see what the rankings say... I know that ranking institutions at the global level is tough, and many criteria are possible... but most agree that research output is paramount... and there are some reasonably objective ways to measure research output...So what does the Tilburg's ranking say about METU research prowess? Well, counting publications in a selection of "core" economics journals in the period 2004-2008 METU is ranked....
drum roll....
tied for number 7 in.... TURKEY!!!
And, number 3 in.... Ankara (its city)!!!
with a total number of publications in core journals of....
.....
.....
exactly....
.....
ONE (1) (not per faculty, total, for the entire 4 year period).

Strongest in the midle east? It's not even strongest in the city of Ankara... Sorry.

Yes, I know this is only one possible ranking criterion, but it is a reasonable and objective one... and frankly, an institution "known worldwide" should definite do much better in this particular measure...

So, any ADCOM in its right mind cannot possibly take a 4.0 GPA from METU at "face value" and assume it is the same as a 4.0 from Princeton, Michigan, CMU, or even a modest US state university... These schools produce a lot more than one single paper every four year.


Well considering how few positions are available in the top 10, or even the top 20 (e.g. Harvard has only about 30), and a lot of those go to graduates from top US and European schools, it seems that your school is taking a disproportionate share of them...maybe that is why is so difficult for other people to get in... your school is making it too hard for graduates from all the Ivies, Berkeley, Michigan, Caltech, Northwestern, Chicago, Oxford, TX, UCLA, etc., etc., etc... Your school is probably better represented in the top 20 than any of these fine schools.

On the other hand I will remain focused on verifiable information.

Wow, I don't see what you're trying to accomplish by thrashing on the OP's school. I would advise against using research output as measure of the quality of an undergraduate program. At the same time, the OP's statement that his school has good placements surely earns more precedent than your inane ramblings about research output. The bottom line is that the OP has a better idea of how well-known his university is. Being insulting is doing nothing to prove your point.

I doubt the OP would lie about his school's history of sending students to top school, as he is the only person who has something to lose. I fail to see why you're repeatedly attacking the OP, under the guise of being helpful. I fail to see how insulting the OP, his plans, and his school, are in anyway productive. You clearly feel you know far more than everyone else about the admissions process and even about the schools they go to.

Your posts are seriously bordering on troll-worthy, and i hope asquare or someone will step in and close this thread.

petecheese
11-26-2010, 12:53 AM
Well considering how few positions are available in the top 10, or even the top 20 (e.g. Harvard has only about 30), and a lot of those go to graduates from top US and European schools, it seems that your school is taking a disproportionate share of them...maybe that is why is so difficult for other people to get in... your school is making it too hard for graduates from all the Ivies, Berkeley, Michigan, Caltech, Northwestern, Chicago, Oxford, TX, UCLA, etc., etc., etc... Your school is probably better represented in the top 20 than any of these fine schools.

On the other hand I will remain focused on verifiable information.

Wow, you really are a douche. Are you actually trying to tell me the placements of "my own" university.
Also there may be 20 positions available in top 20 schools but some accept up to 70 students in order for 20 to enroll, so please use your brain and stop attacking people. I really hope you stop your trolling soon.

asquare
11-26-2010, 04:35 AM
Enough, everyone. You are all welcome to disagree, and to state that you think someone else is providing bad information or that you don't like someone else's tone or attitude. However, you need to be respectful, and you need to make sure that your posts are about issues, not individual personalities. If this thread continues to be argumentative, I will close it.

Elliephant
11-26-2010, 04:51 AM
gkhn, you've been unbelievably civil throughout this whole discourse. Good job. I can't say much about your profile, not being familiar with Turkish schools, but you can at least relax about your GRE quant score getting you auto-rejected. If the rest of your qualifications are up to par, that score should be fine just about anywhere.