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publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 01:02 AM
For a three semester masters. Is the masters in applied math superior to a masters in econ? One I'm lookin at requires 10 courses with 6 math courses and 4 applied and a research project. I was figuring if I did a PhD micro and metrics sequence at the school as my electives this would be a far superior preparation.

Food4Thought
02-01-2015, 02:13 AM
Good post.

Many professors I have talked to have expressed the general sentiment that if you have two identical students and have one do a M.A. in econ and the other do a M.A. in math, the latter would be more competitive at top programs. That being said, excelling in a math masters is more difficult than excelling in an economics masters, which is an important thing to consider.

However, if I recall correctly, you seem to not really care about rank (just you would really love to get into the SUNY system?).

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 02:39 AM
Good post.

Many professors I have talked to have expressed the general sentiment that if you have two identical students and have one do a M.A. in econ and the other do a M.A. in math, the latter would be more competitive at top programs. That being said, excelling in a math masters is more difficult than excelling in an economics masters, which is an important thing to consider.

However, if I recall correctly, you seem to not really care about rank (just you would really love to get into the SUNY system?).

I feel like as preparation for the rigors of first year PhD econ classes a strong mathematical preparation coupled with the actual PhD courses you will be taking would be far more constructive. It will also facilitate true mastery of quantitative economic methods and a level or mathematical research that will inform your thought process.

However I know a lot of folks entering ma programs are less confident in their ability to pull a 4.0. Those who have pulled math 4.0s before are probably already admitted to PhDs.

But if someone is really concerned with better preparing themselves as a researcher rather than just getting placed the masters in am seems like a wise choice.

Food4Thought
02-01-2015, 02:45 AM
Preparation is not about rank silly.

See, this is why people end up ganging up on you. That was unnecessary and condescending.

But let me clarify. The student who will have taken the math master's route will be more competitive because they are better prepared. PhD economics and Master's level economics are often totally different beasts.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 02:48 AM
Yeah sorry. Often I type one line and then edit the post to add more. I shouldnt do that. See above.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 02:49 AM
I feel like as preparation for the rigors of first year PhD econ classes a strong mathematical preparation coupled with the actual PhD courses you will be taking would be far more constructive. It will also facilitate true mastery of quantitative economic methods and a level or mathematical research that will inform your thought process.

However I know a lot of folks entering ma programs are less confident in their ability to pull a 4.0. Those who have pulled math 4.0s before are probably already admitted to PhDs.

But if someone is really concerned with better preparing themselves as a researcher rather than just getting placed the masters in am seems like a wise choice.

Re post

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 02:00 PM
There is some indication that when applying to graduate programs in general, applicants with stem majors receive favorable treatment compared to those with majors in the social sciences. We may even say that, given equivalent gpa (3.5) the engineering major will get in while social sciences major may not ceteris paribus. (Lets use a policy program as our hypothetical, which does not have the remedial math prereqs of econ.)

Is it possible that an econ phd applicant completing a masters in applied math rather than econ might have more leeway in terms of GPA? What would be the size of this cushion? Could the AM student get a 3.5 while the econ student needs a 3.8?

Econhead
02-01-2015, 02:17 PM
There is some indication that when applying to graduate programs in general, applicants with stem majors receive favorable treatment compared to those with majors in the social sciences. We may even say that, given equivalent gpa (3.5) the engineering major will get in while social sciences major may not ceteris paribus. (Lets use a policy program as our hypothetical, which does not have the remedial math prereqs of econ.)

Is it possible that an econ phd applicant completing a masters in applied math rather than econ might have more leeway in terms of GPA? What would be the size of this cushion? Could the AM student get a 3.5 while the econ student needs a 3.8?

I know that you said Ceteris Paribus, but there is no way to know this. -And in the real world, it isn't Ceteris Paribus. Letters play a huge role, and I could certainly see a lower GPA individual with less math with outstanding letters swing the favor of the grad committee in their favor. There are too many factors to try to discuss realistic expectations of such a scenario.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 02:31 PM
It seems that there may be some advantages to the applied math masters, but we do not routinely counsel applicants to consider this option. Perhaps it would be edifying to develop a thorough understanding of this path so we can provide that option to people seeking to remediate weak undergrad performance and maximize their options for admission.

Econhead
02-01-2015, 03:45 PM
This has actually been discussed ad nauseam. We do not recommend math masters for a variety of reasons. Including, but not limited to:
1. Lack of access to letter writers. Just because you have extensive math background and can survive in an Econ program mathematically does not imply that you have suitable interests, intuition, etc. to survive for 5 years and make a good applicant. In an Econ masters you have the ability to take math as an elective-in a math masters, you generally don't (or if you do, it's be like econometrics, not game theory, micro theory, or other suitable signaling coursework.
2. If you have bad math undergrad, there is no good reason why you would be accepted to a master's. So we're back to taking courses as a non-degree student.
3. Unless your only desire is to do strictly applied work, there's be no reason to get an applied master's.
4. Even if #3 is true, it doesn't send appropriate signaling. Applied math is easier than theoretical math, which is the type of math you use in first hear coursework and comps. So doing an applied degree is going to send less of a signal than just taking the appropriate courses as a non-degree student.
5. #1 repeated.
6. If you need research experience, you need Econ research experience. This is harder (not impossible) to get in a non-Econ degree unless you are doing something outside of your degree.

undecidedman
02-01-2015, 03:51 PM
It seems that there may be some advantages to the applied math masters, but we do not routinely counsel applicants to consider this option. Perhaps it would be edifying to develop a thorough understanding of this path so we can provide that option to people seeking to remediate weak undergrad performance and maximize their options for admission.

do you even know what applied maths is?

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 03:57 PM
Heres a core sequence from an applied math program i was looking at.

Differential Equations and Boundary Value Problems I
Applications of Complex Analysis
Analytical Methods for Applied Mathematics and Statistcs
Numerical Analysis I
Numerical Analysis II
Numerical Analysis III

What concepts would you be missing out on in this sequence that someone seeking a pure math preparation would want to have?

undecidedman
02-01-2015, 04:17 PM
Analysis, Geometry, Topology and Algebra are nowhere to be found there. This is what constitutes the core of pure mathematics. It's always fun to see applied math wizards "applying complex analysis tools" when they don't even know what it means for a function to be holomorphic.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 04:23 PM
interesting. I honestly don't know much about these programs, I was just trying to learn. I think there are further options for creative students to get a superior preparation compared to the econ ma. I'm fairly confident if I enrolled in a math masters at one of my in state public universities I could take phd micro and metrics. Then again if I am accepted into a suitable econ program I wouldn't necessarily need to do that.

undecidedman
02-01-2015, 04:31 PM
interesting. I honestly don't know much about these programs, I was just trying to learn. I think there are further options for creative students to get a superior preparation compared to the econ ma. I'm fairly confident if I enrolled in a math masters at one of my in state public universities I could take phd micro and metrics. Then again if I am accepted into a suitable econ program I wouldn't necessarily need to do that.
I don't know what you mean by "creative students"

If you want to improve your understanding of much of the machinery underlying contemporary econ research, I would say a pure math master would be better than the above. Then again that might be overkill if you are just looking to run some insightful regression

Food4Thought
02-01-2015, 04:36 PM
I don't know what you mean by "creative students"

If you want to improve your understanding of much of the machinery underlying contemporary econ research, I would say a pure math master would be better than the above. Then again that might be overkill if you are just looking to run some insightful regression

If he is that committed to preparing himself for applied work, a master's in statistics might even be preferable to the applied math MA.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 04:36 PM
I don't know what you mean by "creative students"

If you want to improve your understanding of much of the machinery underlying contemporary econ research, I would say a pure math master would be better than the above. Then again that might be overkill if you are just looking to run some insightful regression

A creative student would seek to customize their learning experience to maximize utility. This might involve researching course options and customizing curricula, seeking permission to move between departments, and asking lots of questions to make the connections they need to attain their goals. They may seek out a program that is less recognized if it will allow them greater flexibility. This sense of personal agency and refusal to take no for an answer is a valuable trait in fields that rely heavily on creative processes.

undecidedman
02-01-2015, 04:42 PM
A creative student would seek to customize their learning experience to maximize utility. This might involve researching course options and customizing curricula, seeking permission to move between departments, and asking lots of questions to make the connections they need to attain their goals. They may seek out a program that is less recognized if it will allow them greater flexibility. This sense of personal agency and refusal to take no for an answer is a valuable trait in fields that rely heavily on creative processes.
very good for such creative student then

undecidedman
02-01-2015, 04:44 PM
If he is that committed to preparing himself for applied work, a master's in statistics might even be preferable to the applied math MA.
I agree

Castial
02-01-2015, 04:45 PM
At my school the Applied Math masters typically includes a 2-term course on Measure Theory probability with 4 courses of real analysis as a pre req. Typically applied math masters also do take courses which require alot of pure mathematics.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 05:36 PM
I think the take away is if getting a math masters, do pure math rather than applied, take phd micro 1 & 2 as your electives and maybe do a micro theory project with lots of math for your thesis?

Econhead
02-01-2015, 05:47 PM
I think the take away is if getting a math masters, do pure math rather than applied, take phd micro 1 & 2 as your electives and maybe do a micro theory project with lots of math for your thesis?

This assumes too much to be realistic in many programs.

1.Not all math programs will allow you to take these courses as part of your degree. As a result, you might simply end up 'paying for them.'
2. Not all Econ departments will allow random_student_outside_econ_department to take the Ph.D first year courses. Even if they do, they may not allow master's level students to take them.
3. Your thesis has to be approved. Depending on the rigidity of the department, there's no guarantee that you'll be able to have a micro-theory themed degree. Even if so, I'm not sure exactly what a micro-theory themed 'pure math' thesis would look like. Sounds like it would be an Econ thesis unless it simply has "applications" for economics-which is still a math thesis.

I know you like the idea of being a "creative student," but it just isn't always realistic. Many departments don't allow for such manipulation. These "creative students" that you speak of end up spending a disproportionate amount of energy to get the same utility out of doing something ***-backwards than they would doing it the conventional way. There isn't an advantage to being "creative." being "creative" is for those individuals that dug themselves so far in a hole that they can't seem to get a leg up any-way any-how. In those cases, they won't get accepted to a pure-math master's anyway.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 05:58 PM
Lol, well I'm pretty sure the above path would be best for me personally if I chose to apply for a masters. However, I am very unusual, and yes I began in a very deep hole.

Econhead
02-01-2015, 06:07 PM
I think the take away is if getting a math masters, do pure math rather than applied, take phd micro 1 & 2 as your electives and maybe do a micro theory project with lots of math for your thesis?

Something I forgot:

Assume that you could take Ph.D Micro 1/2 and make it count: This may not fit into the way your degree is structured. You may not have an ability to take it when it is offered because of time conflicts, or having too many courses during the same semester. These are extremely realistic problems that everyone faces across all degrees, and why trying to "move between departments" is just not always realistic.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 06:34 PM
Something I forgot:

Assume that you could take Ph.D Micro 1/2 and make it count: This may not fit into the way your degree is structured. You may not have an ability to take it when it is offered because of time conflicts, or having too many courses during the same semester. These are extremely realistic problems that everyone faces across all degrees, and why trying to "move between departments" is just not always realistic.

Has anyone read on the road by jack kerouac? I was tempted to cite a passage in which the outlaw Dean Moriarty claims to be "hotrock capable of everything at the same time" with "unlimited energy." He voices an emulation of Ezra Pounds Vortex, or point of maximum efficiency, where all the learning of the past is integrated into a serene state of ultimate productivity. Where Moriarty fails in his emulation is his degenerate hedonism, a nullification of the Vorticist principles derived from Pound's work. (Hrebeniak, 2006)

However perhaps if sensing this vortex within ourselves it is achievable through self discipline.

I wasn't lying about majoring in english as an undergrad.

Econhead
02-01-2015, 06:53 PM
Has anyone read on the road by jack kerouac? I was tempted to cite a passage in which the outlaw Dean Moriarty claims to be "hotrock capable of everything at the same time" with "unlimited energy." He voices an emulation of Ezra Pounds Vortex, or point of maximum efficiency, where all the learning of the past is integrated into a serene state of ultimate productivity. Where Moriarty fails in his emulation is his degenerate hedonism, a nullification of the Vorticist principles derived from Pound's work. (Hrebeniak, 2006)

However perhaps if sensing this vortex within ourselves it is achievable through self discipline.

I wasn't lying about majoring in english as an undergrad.

I'm not trying to be a turd, but I just don't understand these seemingly self-indulgent, contrived, posts that make you sound like a turd-burgler with entitlement.

This just isn't the place to wax philosophical. It's actually comes across so pompous that I want to down-vote you just for having wasted my time by having posted X # of lines of pure repulsive drivel.

Seriously.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 06:58 PM
I'm not trying to be a turd, but I just don't understand these seemingly self-indulgent, contrived, posts that make you sound like a turd-burgler with entitlement.

This just isn't the place to wax philosophical. It's actually comes across so pompous that I want to down-vote you just for having wasted my time by having posted X # of lines of pure repulsive drivel.

Seriously.

How can you claim to be an academic and be so anti-intellectual. Seriously I thought we had a good rapport going but you've become so antagonistic i don't understand. I started this thread and I can say what I want in it.

Why don't you try to expand your horizons a little bit. Thats a very interesting idea that has wide applications to academic pursuits in general and many academic disciplines in particular including economics. A discipline dies when its practitioners refuse to acknowledge ideas from outside their insular circles. This is the nature of inbreeding. You are better off for reading that post, so don't be like the high school student who doesn't want to do his homework.

ZYX
02-01-2015, 07:08 PM
Maybe he was 'anti-intellectual' because the post wasn't related to economics or economics PhD Admissions (which is the whole point of this forum).
He was possibly 'anti-intellectual' because he didn't care about the content of your post (I don't either TBH).

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 07:14 PM
Maybe he was 'anti-intellectual' because the post wasn't related to economics or economics PhD Admissions (which is the whole point of this forum).
He was possibly 'anti-intellectual' because he didn't care about the content of your post (I don't either TBH).

You get the archimedes award for density as well.

I'd be glad to elaborate on how this idea relates to economics.

By the way, good economists concern themselves with things besides economics. This is a trait of good thinkers. Bad economists are mentally rigid and refuse to explore unconventional ideas. This is a common trait of bad thinkers.

undecidedman
02-01-2015, 07:23 PM
You get the archimedes award for density as well.

I'd be glad to elaborate on how this idea relates to economics.

By the way, good economists concern themselves with things besides economics. This is a trait of good thinkers. Bad economists are mentally rigid and refuse to explore unconventional ideas. This is a common trait of bad thinkers.
oh please stop it

I really think you'd be better off (I'm certain the rest of this board would be, too) if you went on with English rather than wanting to break into economics with your poetic nonsense.

ZYX
02-01-2015, 07:23 PM
Based on your posts you have lots of interests (which is fine). Maybe some people on here aren't curious about lots of other disciplines? (which is also fine).

AFAIK good economists produce good research, which is sometimes inter-disciplinary (in which case thinking about non-economics stuff is good), but sometimes it is not. I'd be pretty confident in saying that there are plenty of good economists who do not read into other disciplines.

As for referring to me as dense, that comment says more about you than it does me, especially when you don't know who I am.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 07:24 PM
[QUOTE=undecidedman;987830]oh please stop it

I really think you'd be better off (I'm certain the rest of this board would be, too) if you went on with English rather than wanting to break into economics with your poetic nonsense.[/QU

Really, from one post you determine I'm that good?

Unfortunately no one will pay for knowledge of english. And i have sunk costs in social sciences now.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 07:25 PM
Based on your posts you have lots of interests (which is fine). Maybe some people on here aren't curious about lots of other disciplines? (which is also fine).

AFAIK good economists produce good research, which is sometimes inter-disciplinary (in which case thinking about non-economics stuff is good), but sometimes it is not. I'd be pretty confident in saying that there are plenty of good economists who do not read into other disciplines.

As for referring to me as dense, that comment says more about you than it does me, especially when you don't know who I am.

You don't need to read in other disciplines to not have a visceral antagonistic reaction to any idea outside your discipline. What are you going to do at interdepartmental functions when you're a prof?

You are dense for disregarding the possibility that the idea could be related to economics.

ZYX
02-01-2015, 07:31 PM
PANY,
you do post a lot. Have you ever thought about not responding to every single post on a thread that you are involved in? It could reduce the number of threads that are derailed, result in silly comments, and above all, are nothing to do with economics PhD admissions.

undecidedman
02-01-2015, 07:38 PM
[QUOTE=undecidedman;987830]oh please stop it

I really think you'd be better off (I'm certain the rest of this board would be, too) if you went on with English rather than wanting to break into economics with your poetic nonsense.[/QU

Really, from one post you determine I'm that good?

Unfortunately no one will pay for knowledge of english. And i have sunk costs in social sciences now.
I'm not impressed by people in English academia, maybe I'm dense.

Anyway, good luck finding someone paying for your social science expertise!

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 07:47 PM
[QUOTE=publicaffairsny;987832]
I'm not impressed by people in English academia, maybe I'm dense.

Anyway, good luck finding someone paying for your social science expertise!

That is very dense, but you are not alone, which is why humanities phds don't get jobs.

Working with numbers gets you paid. Thats just how our ridiculous society operates. I'm fairly certain I will be able to make a living wage with the training offered by an econ phd regardless of whether im participating in insular academic conversations or not. Fortunately I'm not a mercenary about it and am perfectly content never earning a dime. This perspective sets me apart from many of the motivations evidenced by posters here. I've lived in abject poverty and immersed myself in that culture which is something those of you who cast endless class aspersions on me cannot relate to no matter what you think about my family's background. Perhaps you could learn something from me, but you are so resistant to being challenged i don't have very high hopes.

undecidedman
02-01-2015, 07:51 PM
Working with numbers gets you paid. Thats just how our ridiculous society operates.


yeah that's just outrageous



.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 07:53 PM
yeah that's just outrageous



.

Its oppression pure and simple. Create disproportionate numbers of schools that fail to teach numbers, then only give a living wage to those who can use them.

undecidedman
02-01-2015, 07:56 PM
Its oppression pure and simple. Create disproportionate numbers of schools that fail to teach numbers, then only give a living wage to those who can use them.
we all know math is racist and sexist, nothing new about that

Food4Thought
02-01-2015, 07:58 PM
PANY, I have a strong suspicion that you are simply trying to make people angry now. You have gone completely off-topic and are calling people who disagree with you stupid.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 07:58 PM
we all know math is racist and sexist, nothing new about that

Its very easy to be glib about it when you live in an ivory tower and have never sat across the table from someone who experiences a disparate impact.

Food4Thought
02-01-2015, 08:00 PM
Even though this thread was originally about a question of yours, you don't seem to be interested in answers..

Either we are 1) wrong, 2) dense, or 3) intolerant of your unique perspective.

We just cannot win with you.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 08:00 PM
PANY, I have a strong suspicion that you are simply trying to make people angry now. You have gone completely off-topic and are calling people who disagree with you stupid.

No I am actually hurt that people are being so unfair to me and sad that academic people can be so closed minded. My reaction is to speak truth to power. Its actually pretty easy because I am logically consistent while everyone else is twisting themselves into knots trying to prove me wrong.

And its not about smart or stupid. History shows that many very smart people have invested untold energy resources and time in being wrong.

undecidedman
02-01-2015, 08:04 PM
Its very easy to be glib about it when you live in an ivory tower and have never sat across the table from someone who experiences a disparate impact.
you're very right but I think I can relate since I've been struggling to survive in this patriarchal world for years now. as a self-identified queer woc from the south it is hard to thrive in an academia which is still incredibly cis-normative.

I'd suggest taking a look at Sign In (http://rrp.sagepub.com/content/31/3/40.full.pdf) for a good reference on the issues I am referring to.

ZYX
02-01-2015, 08:07 PM
I am logically consistent while everyone else is twisting themselves into knots trying to prove me wrong..

The only person being inconsistent is you. You have called out others for being 'anti-intellectual' but then you refer to people as dense, and insults such as dense are 'anti-intellectual'.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 08:07 PM
you're very right but I think I can relate since I've been struggling to survive in this patriarchal world for years now. as a self-identified queer woc from the south it is hard to thrive in an academia which is still incredibly cis-normative.

I'd suggest taking a look at Sign In (http://rrp.sagepub.com/content/31/3/40.full.pdf) for a good reference on the issues I am referring to.

i'm well versed in queer and critical race theory. I'm honestly a little surprised you can have this background and try to oppress my individuality. but I understand that part of the psyche of the oppressed is to cling to the oppression contract which punishes those who speak out. If you want to talk about your experience feel free to pm.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 08:09 PM
The only person being inconsistent is you. You have called out others for being 'anti-intellectual' but then you refer to people as dense, and insults such as dense are 'anti-intellectual'.

please explain your rationale.

I'm fairly certain it applies to the old argument that if you are intolerant of bigortry you are yourself a bigot. i reject that argument as part of my logical moral and ethical compass. so try again.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 08:12 PM
out to lunch back in an hour

Econhead
02-01-2015, 08:40 PM
(publicaffairsny to the rest of the world):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPWYcjypSWo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPWYcjypSWo)

Hopefully Chateu won't mind if I borrow this from an old post of his. It was appropriate then and it is appropriate now. Perhaps even more so considering the number of self-indulgent posts from PANY in this thread.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 08:44 PM
Hopefully Chateu won't mind if I borrow this from an old post of his. It was appropriate then and it is appropriate now. Perhaps even more so considering the number of self-indulgent posts from PANY in this thread.

Appeal to ridicule. Last refuge of the logically incompetent. I suggest you don't take notes from château who is a complete failure in the realm of debate or even civil discussion.

As I said anyone who downvotes my posts in the interest of censorship is free to send me a forwarding address and I will mail them a copy of Samuelsons foundations to burn.

Seriously how can you have a discussion if you censor all of one sides ideas?

sulebrahim
02-01-2015, 08:49 PM
Appeal to ridicule. Last refuge of the logically incompetent. I suggest you don't take notes from château who is a complete failure in the realm of debate or even civil discussion.

boy! this escalated quickly. I do agree with the others, if you say that you are being witch-hunted or victimized; calling people, many of who were actually giving advice, anti-intellectual or dense or "complete failure in the realm of debate" is not going to help.

Blanket
02-01-2015, 08:53 PM
PANY, a few honest questions: Why do you think a large amount of the threads you post in turn into pissing contests? I'm not a vet here, but I can't recall one poster I'd describe as inflammatory, and you've far surpassed that. You have no defenders, and a plethora of detractors. Why do you think that is? Do you think that about a dozen posters who don't know each other are colluding against you?

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 08:54 PM
boy! this escalated quickly. I do agree with the others, if you say that you are being witch-hunted or victimized; calling people, many of who were actually giving advice, anti-intellectual or dense or "complete failure in the realm of debate" is not going to help.

It was fine until I made a good natured allusion to a very accessible book. The thread rapidly descended into insult negation and ridicule none of which was initiated by me.

Blanket
02-01-2015, 08:55 PM
It was fine until I made a good natured allusion to a very accessible book. The thread rapidly descended into insult negation and ridicule none of which was initiated by me.

Your very first reply, since edited, called another poster 'silly'...

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 08:57 PM
PANY, a few honest questions: Why do you think a large amount of the threads you post in turn into pissing contests? I'm not a vet here, but I can't recall one poster I'd describe as inflammatory, and you've far surpassed that. You have no defenders, and a plethora of detractors. Why do you think that is? Do you think that about a dozen posters who don't know each other are colluding against you?

No I think there is a fundamental flaw in this community which is intellectual rigidity, ideological hegemony and resistance to change. I represent the antithesis to that. That scares people and makes them jealous so they react with hostility.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 08:58 PM
Yeah cause he responded in a hostile way attempting to impugn me as logically inconsistent. In the interest of civility and progress I edited my initial response to get the conversation on track. This may be proof no one had honest intentions but me.

(Response to blanket on my "silly" comment.)

ZYX
02-01-2015, 09:02 PM
The thread rapidly descended into insult negation and ridicule none of which was initiated by me.

Apart from a pointless post and referring to two users as dense, none of this argument was initiated by you

ZYX
02-01-2015, 09:03 PM
No I think there is a fundamental flaw in this community which is intellectual rigidity, ideological hegemony and resistance to change. I represent the antithesis to that. That scares people and makes them jealous so they react with hostility.

No-one is forcing you to post here, so if you don't like this forum you know what to do (I hope...)

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 09:04 PM
Apart from a pointless post and referring to two users as dense, none of this argument was initiated by you

This is part of a larger conversation about censorship and knee jerk hostility to diversity. The exchange was precipitated by a scatological allusion to one of the better ideas I've presented on here. I will accept no blame for the rigidity and defensiveness of this community. I am justified in calling it as I see it while attempting to educate with clearly defined counterpoints.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 09:06 PM
No-one is forcing you to post here, so if you don't like this forum you know what to do (I hope...)

I do like this forum. It provides good information. And as I'm not personally offended by the ignorance of the posters here it gives me confidence in my ability to intellectually outpace a competitive pool of applicants. I can do this all day.

undecidedman
02-01-2015, 09:06 PM
This is part of a larger conversation about censorship and knee jerk hostility to diversity. The exchange was precipitated by a scatological allusion to one of the better ideas I've presented on here. I will accept no blame for the rigidity and defensiveness of this community. I am justified in calling it as I see it while attempting to educate with clearly defined counterpoints.
you can't be for real

I hail you, master troll

Econhead
02-01-2015, 09:10 PM
It was fine until I made a good natured allusion to a very accessible book. The thread rapidly descended into insult negation and ridicule none of which was initiated by me.

1. Nothing about your discourse is civil.

2. You seem to be confused about the nature of this forum. it is not, nor has anyone ever implied that it is a debate forum. Period. The greatest level of debate prior to your presence was the degree to which someone would be competitive, or weather one program would be better or worse than another for a particular field/subfield. Since you have joined you have been intent on (literally) challenging every piece of conventional wisdom that is dished out on this forum. You have further gone so far as to recomend advice that is completely backwards from the conventional wisdom because it might hold promise for one out of every 200 or 500 applicants (due to their unconventional profile).

3. You literally believe you are always right. I have only ever seen you concede once, and that was yesterday when someone called you out on the professor attending LSE.

4. What you have done is akin to a hostile takeover. This forum isn't akin to a philosophical discussion. The fact that we're not interested in it does not imply anything about our desire to be intellectually diverse. it only implies that we don't want those type of posts (which fall well outside the intent of this forum) no longer posted here.

5. You will not once not ever not never take no for an answer. You post for your own self-pleasure and self-aggrandizement. -That, or you are trolling and simply want to get a rise out of an entire community.

There was a time when your posts began becoming helpful, and you included disclaimers. Since then you've fallen so far down the rabbit-hole that any chance of reversal to your helpful time period seems unlikely.

ZYX
02-01-2015, 09:13 PM
This is part of a larger conversation about censorship and knee jerk hostility to diversity. The exchange was precipitated by a scatological allusion to one of the better ideas I've presented on here. I will accept no blame for the rigidity and defensiveness of this community. I am justified in calling it as I see it while attempting to educate with clearly defined counterpoints.

PANY,
No-one is censoring you. Although posts can be hidden due to low votes, they can still be viewed so that is not censorship.
I am open to new and differing ideas, but not differing ideas that are flawed.
I have said it before in this thread (but you have ignored it), your had nothing to do with economics PhD admissions, which is what this forum is about.

If you wish to start your own forum about interdisciplinary concepts within economics, feel free, I'm sure everyone on here can't wait to register there and discuss creative students, oppression etc. with you ;)

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 09:14 PM
1. Nothing about your discourse is civil.

2. You seem to be confused about the nature of this forum. it is not, nor has anyone ever implied that it is a debate forum. Period. The greatest level of debate prior to your presence was the degree to which someone would be competitive, or weather one program would be better or worse than another for a particular field/subfield. Since you have joined you have been intent on (literally) challenging every piece of conventional wisdom that is dished out on this forum. You have further gone so far as to recomend advice that is completely backwards from the conventional wisdom because it might hold promise for one out of every 200 or 500 applicants (due to their unconventional profile).

3. You literally believe you are always right. I have only ever seen you concede once, and that was yesterday when someone called you out on the professor attending LSE.

4. What you have done is akin to a hostile takeover. This forum isn't akin to a philosophical discussion. The fact that we're not interested in it does not imply anything about our desire to be intellectually diverse. it only implies that we don't want those type of posts (which fall well outside the intent of this forum) no longer posted here.

5. You will not once not ever not never take no for an answer. You post for your own self-pleasure and self-aggrandizement. -That, or you are trolling and simply want to get a rise out of an entire community.

There was a time when your posts began becoming helpful, and you included disclaimers. Since then you've fallen so far down the rabbit-hole that any chance of reversal to your helpful time period seems unlikely.

It takes two to tango. The only reason these threads degenerate is because people are compelled to try to make me look stupid when the proper response is to accept a diverse viewpoint as one of many and accept it in context.

If you notice I generally provide my views to those applicants that the conventional wisdom instructs to give up now. I generally stay out of threads with conventional applicants unless I have a point to make. At one point I was an applicant they told to give up. If I can inspire others I am satisfied.

Econhead
02-01-2015, 09:29 PM
It takes two to tango. The only reason these threads degenerate is because people are compelled to try to make me look stupid when the proper response is to accept a diverse viewpoint as one of many and accept it in context.

You play devil's advocate with a vengence.

When you go in and speak with an advisor, so that they might advise you on what steps you should be taking next to reach your goals-Do you debate with them, challenging their knowledge? No. You accept their advice (or don't, but always are polite about it), and that's it. What you do not do is debate with them about the degree to which they are wrong, and make outlandish suggestions about ways that you should challenge their advise. You might ask them is an alternative route is appropriate, but when they say NO, you drop it and leave it at that.

This forum is for advise. Advice by those who have been through the system in some way. You are new, only switching over, but believe that your years of real world experience gives you some ability to make judgement for which you are not qualified. When we ask (or tell) you to stop, and when we tell you that you are wrong, you seem unable to cope, believing that everyone but you is wrong.

Follow the natural way of the forum. It's that easy.

Food4Thought
02-01-2015, 09:34 PM
Yeah cause he responded in a hostile way attempting to impugn me as logically inconsistent. In the interest of civility and progress I edited my initial response to get the conversation on track. This may be proof no one had honest intentions but me.

(Response to blanket on my "silly" comment.)

Minor point, but WAT.

I told you "good post." I even gave you reps because of your starting what seemed to be an on-topic thread which could lead to a good discussion.

Silly me.

chateauheart
02-01-2015, 09:45 PM
PANY isn't a troll, but someone clearly suffering from severe psychotic and anti-social issues that are apparent from the huge swings in tone and tact between his posts, and these aren't issues you can debate him out of. These are personal issues that need to be tackled over the long-run by a professional therapist. Which is why I've mostly been ignoring him besides an occasional, obligatory nudge when he posts something that is dreadfully misleading to newcomers in this profession. This is not new; we've already experienced this in a milder form with Humanomics' obsessive posting habits a couple of years ago. The difference is that we aren't learning anything interesting or remotely intelligent among the mostly awful and self-indulgent derailments this time, and that Hum at the very least made an effort to be respectful and likable.

The easy thing for this community would have been to ban him and move on. Our one active moderator, tm, rejects this solution mostly because of his personal beliefs. I respect that; on the other hand, I can't fathom how many thousands of readers - we have a huge lurking audience every year - were permanently lost because of this bullsh*t. And that's really tragic. Speaking as somebody switching in from another discipline, the community we had here for aspiring grad econ students was unique among the major academic disciplines, and incredibly valuable for students lost in the mostly unassisted wilderness of grad admissions. It no longer is.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 09:52 PM
PANY isn't a troll, but someone clearly suffering from severe psychotic and anti-social issues that are apparent from the huge swings in tone and tact between his posts, and these aren't issues you can debate him out of. These are personal issues that need to be tackled over the long-run by a professional therapist. Which is why I've mostly been ignoring him besides an occasional, obligatory nudge when he posts something that is dreadfully misleading. We've already experienced that in a milder form with Humanomics' obsessive posting habits a couple of years ago; the difference for most of us is that we aren't learning anything new among the mostly awful and self-indulgent derailments this time, and that Hum at the very least made an effort to be respectful and collegial.

The easy thing for this community would have been to ban him and move on. Our only moderator, tm, refuses this solution because of his personal beliefs. I respect that; on the other hand, I can't fathom how many thousands of readers - we have a huge audience every year - we've lost because of this bullsh*t. And that's really tragic.

You are maybe knowlegable about econ. You know nothing about psychology or psychaitry. So leave your armchair judgments someplace else.

By the way humanomics actually had some sense and did very well for himself as an independent thinker. Something an excellent sheep like yourself could learn from.

BTW I am now a guru in training.

Blanket
02-01-2015, 09:55 PM
The easy thing for this community would have been to ban him and move on. Our only moderator, tm, refuses this solution because of his personal beliefs. I respect that; on the other hand, I can't fathom how many thousands of readers - we have a huge audience every year - we've lost because of this bullsh*t. And that's really tragic.

Yup. I think tm_member needs to moderate as a servant to the forum's charter, not to his ideology. As a fellow (mostly) libertarian, I don't see the necessity for unabridged freedom of speech on a forum meant for a very narrow range of discussion. PANY has made chunks of the forum unreadable for days, and it really isn't fair for people like me who visit this forum for one reason only.

Alternatively, tm_member may be well served viewing this forum to be his private property. If someone came into his house and broke his television, he would kick that person out. That's something like what PANY is doing here.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 09:56 PM
Yup. I think tm_member needs to moderate as a servant to the forum's charter, not to his ideology. As a fellow (mostly) libertarian, I don't see the necessity for unabridged freedom of speech on a forum meant for a very narrow range of discussion. PANY has made chunks of the forum unreadable for days, and it really isn't fair for people like me who visit this forum for one reason only.

Alternatively, tm_member may be well served viewing this forum to be his private property. If someone came into his house and broke his television, he would kick that person out. That's something like what PANY is doing here.

Where should I send the book?

Those who think I should sit down and shut up when they attempt to eviscerate my intellect and character are the ones who are really contributing to an inhospitable environment.

You want it to stop, stop censoring and clinging to your bullheaded and factually incorrect arguments.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 10:03 PM
Congratulations you have stifled debate. I'm really happy you have failed to expand your worldview by one inch. It bodes well for the future of the discipline which is already in trouble.

synthxdill
02-01-2015, 10:16 PM
[QUOTE=undecidedman;987830]oh please stop it

I really think you'd be better off (I'm certain the rest of this board would be, too) if you went on with English rather than wanting to break into economics with your poetic nonsense.[/QU

Really, from one post you determine I'm that good?

Unfortunately no one will pay for knowledge of english. And i have sunk costs in social sciences now.

This guy is pretty funny. Solid break from grading to read this thread. Glad he didn't get banned, this performance is outstanding.

ZYX
02-01-2015, 10:16 PM
The text below in quotations was posted on the previous page, but I'm reposting it as PANY doesn't seem to have replied to it, and I know he loves a good debate, diversity of ideas etc.

"PANY,
No-one is censoring you. Although posts can be hidden due to low votes, they can still be viewed so that is not censorship.
I am open to new and differing ideas, but not differing ideas that are flawed.
I have said it before in this thread (but you have ignored it), your had nothing to do with economics PhD admissions, which is what this forum is about.

If you wish to start your own forum about interdisciplinary concepts within economics, feel free, I'm sure everyone on here can't wait to register there and discuss creative students, oppression etc. with you ;)"

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 10:19 PM
The text below in quotations was posted on the previous page, but I'm reposting it as PANY doesn't seem to have replied to it, and I know he loves a good debate, diversity of ideas etc.

"PANY,
No-one is censoring you. Although posts can be hidden due to low votes, they can still be viewed so that is not censorship.
I am open to new and differing ideas, but not differing ideas that are flawed.
I have said it before in this thread (but you have ignored it), your had nothing to do with economics PhD admissions, which is what this forum is about.

If you wish to start your own forum about interdisciplinary concepts within economics, feel free, I'm sure everyone on here can't wait to register there and discuss creative students, oppression etc. with you ;)"

Why would I want to participate in a forum with no posters? I dont enjoy talking to myself...

And if you were really open to new ideas you would not make an immediate determination of right or wrong. You would meet a challenging idea with clarifying questions, which no one has done. Every response has been an ad hominem attempt to suppress debate. Its actually pretty morally reprehensible.

ZYX
02-01-2015, 10:21 PM
Why would I want to participate in a forum with no posters? I dont enjoy talking to myself...

And if you were really open to new ideas you would not make an immediate determination of right or wrong. You would meet a challenging idea with clarifying questions, which no one has done. Every response has been an ad hominem attempt to oppress debate. Its actually pretty morally reprehensible.

You want debate, yet you don't even directly address the content of my post (again), hypocritical

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 10:23 PM
You want debate, yet you don't even directly address the content of my post (again), hypocritical

Which point did I fail to address?

ZYX
02-01-2015, 10:29 PM
Which point did I fail to address?

You say that you are being censored. That is not true. Admittedly posts can be hidden due to low votes, but they can still be viewed. Do you now agree that you are not being censored?

Your post regarding interdisciplinary ideas in economics had nothing to do with economics PhD admissions (which is what this forum is all about). Surely you agree that it was way off topic?

And finally, when are you opening up your own forum where you can discuss interdisciplinary ideas in economics? (As this is a forum for doctoral admissions)

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 10:37 PM
One key idea in behavioral economics is i believe called active choice theory and refers to the fact that people are more likely to make a passive decision, such as to read a post if they are given the choice to opt out (passive exposure), rather than to opt in (active exposure). By hiding my post behind an icon, you have effectively censored me by shifting the burden of reading the post onto the reader, by changing the nature of the choice from a passive to active decision.

I do not concede the point that the initial post lacked connection to economics admission. However it need not. Due to low traffic and debate on this site I have been attempting to foster discussion related to economic theory rather than admissions whenever possible, an objective that has been tacitly approved by the moderator and other posters. The post I made had clear applications to economics, namely through connection to accelerated change and futurist growth projections.

chateauheart
02-01-2015, 10:50 PM
This guy is pretty funny. Solid break from grading to read this thread. Glad he didn't get banned, this performance is outstanding.

"You're better off from reading that post" is still the funniest line I've seen for a while. I don't think even I or Hum were that obtuse back in the day.

ColonelForbin
02-01-2015, 10:56 PM
Unfortunately no one will pay for knowledge of english. And i have sunk costs in social sciences now.


I'm glad they are sunk costs, then they shouldn't affect your decision to change paths now. I really hope I don't end up in the same program as you... I'll learn so much as you derail our metrics professor into teaching rhetoric over x'x-1.

You're a tool and I hope you get the banhammer. This forum should not be one's play toy.

A la Billy Madison:
Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 11:07 PM
I'm glad they are sunk costs, then they shouldn't affect your decision to change paths now. I really hope I don't end up in the same program as you... I'll learn so much as you derail our metrics professor into teaching rhetoric over x'x-1.

You're a tool and I hope you get the banhammer. This forum should not be one's play toy.

A la Billy Madison:
Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


Difference between me and you. I engage with people. You deliver insults from outside the plane of debate. No one asked you. Get a life.

Lets model this economically. There is a demand for my comments, evidenced by the abundance of responses they deliver. Participants in this exchange have generally equitable levels of information and academic resources. Everyone is free to come and go as they please. The outcomes should be efficient. (Though I am the only supplier this seems to be a natural monopoly).

By the way, I actually do very well in the classroom because I have a lot of social intuition. I routinely self censor in person because I know people can't keep up. However when I engage in writing I let it fly which leads to dominating behaviors in written communication.

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 11:15 PM
I don't think this idea got a fair chance to be presented in my last post.

Lets model this economically. There is a demand for my comments, evidenced by the abundance of responses they deliver. Participants in this exchange have generally equitable levels of information and academic resources. Everyone is free to come and go as they please. The outcomes should be efficient. (Though I am the only supplier this seems to be a natural monopoly).

undecidedman
02-01-2015, 11:16 PM
There is a demand for my comments, evidenced by the abundance of responses they deliver.
do you really think that if I start shooting somewhere and people shoot back at me this is evidence of demand for my bullets?

publicaffairsny
02-01-2015, 11:16 PM
do you really think that if I start shooting somewhere and people shoot back at me this is evidence of demand for my bullets?

I don't think thats a valid analogy.

However if you wanted to model that as an exchange, it would not be a competitive market, because consumers of bullets couldn't freely enter and exit in time to preserve their safety.If they could and chose to stay and engage in gun play yes there would be a demand,

jrdonsimoni
02-02-2015, 12:00 AM
do you really think that if I start shooting somewhere and people shoot back at me this is evidence of demand for my bullets?


I just skipped some of the pages here, and I landed here and read this comment: brilliant! Would have loved to see a Family-Guy-style flashback on this. Sorry for the rnadom reply, but I just thought this was a very accurate and well-thought argument, with just enough humour to make the point even clearer :)

publicaffairsny
02-02-2015, 12:01 AM
I just skipped some of the pages here, and I landed here and read this comment: brilliant! Would have loved to see a Family-Guy-style flashback on this. Sorry for the rnadom reply, but I just thought this was a very accurate and well-thought argument, with just enough humour to make the point even clearer :)

obviously not well thought out because i debunked the economic logic behind it in 2 seconds.

"However if you wanted to model that as an exchange, it would not be a competitive market, because consumers of bullets couldn't freely enter and exit in time to preserve their safety.If they could and chose to stay and engage in gun play yes there would be a demand,"

tm_member
02-02-2015, 12:34 AM
http://www.urch.com/forums/attachments/phd-economics/7006-masters-applied-math-homer-eating-popcorn-meme-generator-i-have-my-popcorn-continue-aa07ef.jpg


Seriously though, you all know my stance on this stuff... You are all grown ups, you are free to disagree or ignore PAny. While the thread was derailed, it was a decent topic of discussion at first and it was derailed by numerous people, not just PAny.

I hope you all correct him when he is wrong and try to be civil. From what I've seen, it was mostly civil but there was a little turd-flinging that I'm not too happy about. Now, if there is some good reason for a banhammer reaction, I'm all ears, but because you disagree with him or he is wrong is or he is too eager or whatever not reason enough.

“He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion... Nor is it enough that he should hear the opinions of adversaries from his own teachers, presented as they state them, and accompanied by what they offer as refutations. He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them...he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.”
― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

tm_member
02-02-2015, 12:40 AM
God damnit. Why did he have to go and make that other thread?

I redact everything above (well, in the sense that my hands off approach has to be overridden). :livid: