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raghuveer_v
05-31-2002, 05:18 AM
Hi Erin,




5. The architecture exhibited in the Empire State Building and conveyed us an idea of the prevailing attitudes of the day is important for the historical and cultural value it represents.


conveyed ==> conveying

The perennial problem: Do I use -ing or -ed? Here we need the -ing form because architecture is the subject of the verbal conveying.

I (Erin Billy) wrote this problem this way because I noticed that many of my students were missing real TOEFL questions (just like this one) because they were simply matching the Ed form in conveyed with the Ed form in exhibited and assuming it was correct that way.

Nope! Not a good strategy--you'll miss the harder questions if you do that!!

prevailing
is
it represents



Sorry Erin, But I couldn't make any sense out of the scentence even after the correction.

Can you please explain ...

Raghuveer.

raghuveer_v
05-31-2002, 05:22 AM
And ...





6. In 2001 George W. Bush, Jr., entered his first year office
as President of the United States.


In 2001
entered
office ==> of office

Gotta have this preposition!

as President



I agree with the answer.

But, I am still a little bit confused about the useage of "The"

I thought it should be .... " as the President of the Unites States."

S.O.S !!



Raghuveer.

phuongled
06-08-2002, 01:51 PM
I think the U.S. has only 1 President so we can say either 'the President' or throw it away.E.g.(The) director of this company has just retired.

Erin
06-12-2002, 06:14 AM
Sorry Erin, But I couldn't make any sense out of the scentence even after the correction.

Can you please explain ...

Raghuveer. It's a bit tricky to answer these questions sometimes, but the main idea behind whether to choose the -ing form or the -ed form this:

The -ing form is used for DOING the action, which means SUBJECT, which means ACTIVE voice.

The -ed form is used for RECEIVING the action, which means OBJECT, which means PASSIVE voice.

Before I go further, let me offer two examples that will make things clearer as we go along:

<ul>
speaking person (the -ing form)
spoken words (the -ed form)
[/list]
In this type of question, we always have two elements:

<ul>
a particple, which is either in the -ing or -ed form
a noun that is modified by this participle
[/list]
So, using the previous examples, speaking modifies person and spoken modifies words.

The next step is to realize that these participles all come from verbs--speaking and spoken both come from the verb speak.

Now, using these examples, and applying them to the rules I mentioned at the beginning, we will notice that if we made a sentence, person would be the subject of the verb speak and words would be the object of the verb speak. Using this procedure, we can figure out whether should use the -ing or -ed form of a participle that modifies a noun. And that's it!!

Of course, this is easy when the vocab is easy, and we often get confused when we are using difficult vocab because we sometimes don't know whether something is the subject or the object of the verb, but this procedure that I have explained is the only sure way to get the right answer.

Erin
06-12-2002, 06:30 AM
And ...





6. In 2001 George W. Bush, Jr., entered his first year office
as President of the United States.


In 2001
entered
office ==> of office

Gotta have this preposition!

as President



I agree with the answer.

But, I am still a little bit confused about the useage of "The"

I thought it should be .... " as the President of the Unites States."

S.O.S !!



Raghuveer.

Another favorite TOEFL trick--we can omit the determiner with many titles/professions.

For example, it is perfectly acceptable to say:

<ul> Poet Maya Angelou is best known...
She is chair of the foundation.[/list]

Make sense now?

Erin

raghuveer_v
06-12-2002, 10:58 AM
Hi Erin,



It's a bit tricky to answer these questions sometimes, but the main idea behind whether to choose the -ing form or the -ed form this:

The -ing form is used for DOING the action, which means SUBJECT, which means ACTIVE voice.

The -ed form is used for RECEIVING the action, which means OBJECT, which means PASSIVE voice.

Before I go further, let me offer two examples that will make things clearer as we go along:


speaking person (the -ing form)
spoken words (the -ed form)

In this type of question, we always have two elements:


a particple, which is either in the -ing or -ed form
a noun that is modified by this participle

So, using the previous examples, speaking modifies person and spoken modifies words.

The next step is to realize that these participles all come from verbs--speaking and spoken both come from the verb speak.

Now, using these examples, and applying them to the rules I mentioned at the beginning, we will notice that if we made a sentence, person would be the subject of the verb speak and words would be the object of the verb speak. Using this procedure, we can figure out whether should use the -ing or -ed form of a participle that modifies a noun. And that's it!!

Of course, this is easy when the vocab is easy, and we often get confused when we are using difficult vocab because we sometimes don't know whether something is the subject or the object of the verb, but this procedure that I have explained is the only sure way to get the right answer.

Erin



Yeah, I understood the underlying concept, and the approach you suggested to tackle such problems.

But what is still fuzzy to me, is the meaning of this particular scentence...


"The architecture exhibited in the Empire State Building and conveying us an idea of the prevailing attitudes of the day is important for the historical and cultural value it represents."

Let me make things simple for myself by reducing the scentence to it's components. If I am right,...

The scentences says ...

Something1 and Something2 is important for Something3.

Is it?

If so, can you please explain the Something2 thing?
who is connveying the idea to us?

And, is the "it" in Something3 referring to Something1?


By the way, after reducing the scentence to this form, I got another doubt ...

Isn't it that the scentence should read ...

Something1 and Something2 are important for Something3. :question:


Please waste some more of your time to enlighten our dumb minds


http://www.gifart.com/images/smilie.gif

<table style="background-color:silver;color:Black;font-face:arial;font-size:10px;border-left:1px solid white;border-top:1px solid white;border-bottom:1px solid black;border-right:1px solid black;"><tr><td> Raghuveer :) </td></tr></table>

Edited by - raghuveer_v on 2002 Jun 12 06:20:27

madhavi
06-19-2002, 12:09 PM
hi raghuveer I had the same doubt

"The architecture exhibited in the Empire State Building and conveying us an idea of the prevailing attitudes of the day is important for the historical and cultural value it represents."

Let me make things simple for myself by reducing the scentence to it's components. If I am right,...

The scentences says ...

Something1 and Something2 is important for Something3.

Is it?

If so, can you please explain the Something2 thing?
who is connveying the idea to us?

And, is the "it" in Something3 referring to Something1?


By the way, after reducing the scentence to this form, I got another doubt ...

Isn't it that the scentence should read ...

Something1 and Something2 are important for Something3. :question:


I feel the sentence good if we replace 'and' with a comma.
In that case it indicates that something1 and something2 are the same
which is important for something3


The architecture exhibited in the empire state building ,conveying us an idea of the prevailing attitudes of the day,is important for the historical and cultural value it presents


Erin please answer if it is good this way.

madhavi

Erin
06-19-2002, 06:41 PM
But what is still fuzzy to me, is the meaning of this particular scentence...BTW, I've noticed your idiosyncratic spelling of sentence for many dozens of posts... At first I thought it was a typo (a "goof"), but now I'm starting to wonder whether it's a mistake.


"The architecture exhibited in the Empire State Building and conveying us an idea of the prevailing attitudes of the day is important for the historical and cultural value it represents."

Let me make things simple for myself by reducing the scentence to it's components. If I am right,...

The scentences says ...

Something1 and Something2 is important for Something3.

Is it?
No.

The main subject of the sentence is architecture.

The trick here is that "exhibited" and "conveying" both modify "architecture." Both of these words can be seen as reduced adjective clauses:

The architecture that is exhibited in the Empire State Building and that conveys us an idea of the prevailing attitudes of the day is important for the historical and cultural value it represents.




Please waste some more of your time to enlighten our dumb minds
Nobody is dumb here. We are all just sharing our knowledge!!


[img]http://www.gifart.com/images/smilie.gif" width="60px">

<table style="background-color:silver;color:Black;font-face:arial;font-size:10px;border-left:1px solid white;border-top:1px solid white;border-bottom:1px solid black;border-right:1px solid black;"><tr><td> Raghuveer :) </td></tr></table>
Nice rollover Raghuveer!

I hope this helps, but please let me know if not!! And don't be afraid to "bump" the topic if need be!!

Erin

raghuveer_v
06-20-2002, 03:23 AM
Atlast, I now understand the meaning of the sentence. Thanks.
And thanks for correcting my 20-year old mistake.

The meaning is okay, but again, a little doubt ...

"... architecture that is exhibited in the Empire State Building ..."
suggests passive voice.

where as ...

"...and that conveys us an idea of the prevailing attitudes of the day ..."
suggests active voice.

Can these be combined so?

Raghuveer

Erin
06-20-2002, 03:49 AM
Yes! It's perfectly fine to join active and passive voice with a conjunction; in other words, it is correct parallel structure to use these together.

A lot of people think otherwise; that's why I wrote this question this way. In my mind, I think of this as "parallel structure doesn't "go that deep."" I've used this explanation with some of my students, but I didn't see that "flash" of understanding that crosses somebody's face when they've understood, so I don't generally use this explanation.

So, have we exhausted all the TOEFL aspects of this question yet?? :D

BTW, I've been thinking for a bit about "conveying us." I think I'm going to change this to "conveying to us" in my book.

Erin

Erin
06-20-2002, 03:52 AM
One more thing, before I forget. I meant to comment on your new rollover, but this post has the button you made, not the rollover. Anyway, nice rollover in your later posts!!

Erin

raghuveer_v
06-20-2002, 04:15 AM
Thanks for all your explanation, advice and comments, Erin.

I'd also like to make a small request to you ...

I use a lot of constructs in my language, without being completely sure whether they are correct. If you see anything wrong in my post, even though it's not what I am asking about, please correct me. I'd appreciate.

For example I wrote ...


Can these be combined so?


Can a sentence be written so? :)

you can move this to a new post if you wish ...

here is the rollover you liked ...

<table style="background-color:white;color:Gray;font-face:arial;font-size:10px;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid black;vertical-align:middle;cursor:hand;" onMouseOver="this.style.backgroundColor='#eeeeee';" onMouseOut="this.style.backgroundColor='white';" cellpadding=1 cellspacing=1><tr><td>http://www.allfreeclipart.com/cartoons/cartoon24.gif Raghuveer</td></tr></table>

raghuveer_v
06-20-2002, 04:21 AM
And, as a gesture of reciprocation, let me point out a mistake in your post : :)

footnote:

TestMagic help you before your test?

Correct would be either ...

Did TestMagic help you before your test?

or

(Had) TestMagic helped you before your test?

Isn't it, Erin? :)

Raghuveer.

Erin
06-20-2002, 05:30 AM
Believe you me, I thought that I might confuse people if I wrote

TestMagic help you before your test?

but the truth is that it is normal and acceptable spoken English.

I thought that some people might think it was wrong, and that perhaps someone (like you) would even ask me, at which point I'd give the (simple) explanation that I'm about to give you.

The reason is that we often drop the "do" part of a question in spoken English. That's it!

Anyway, I decided to write it thus so that others might notice it, think about it, become accustomed to it, and perhaps even learn it!!

Erin

raghuveer_v
06-20-2002, 06:17 AM
Sorry for continuing this loooong topic with different questions, but ...

If we take the question "Did you give him the money?"
and drop "Did", we get

"you give hime the money?"

which sounds awkward, atleast to my non-native ears.

I feel it should be

"you gave him the money?"

Isn't it so:question:

Raghuveer.

Erin
06-20-2002, 03:42 PM
Yes, that's correct.

Let me run another one by you:

"You eat yet?" ("Did you eat yet?")

How does that one sound?

How about this one:

"Get it?" ("Do/did you get it?" If we drop the "do/did" we don't know whether it's present or past tense.)

It's extremely common, even normal, to speak like this.

Spoken English actually has more grammar rules than written English, so some of these things can be tricky sometimes.

And, to answer your question about "so," we don't normally speak or write like this, but it's acceptable. I use it sometimes to save space, but normally we just say "like this/that."

Erin

raghuveer_v
06-20-2002, 06:45 PM
...All good things come to an end. So, does this topic. And as usual,...


<h3>Thank you, Erin.</h3>

Me.

octavian_2200
08-04-2002, 06:37 PM
-ED versus -ING

I guess the best distinction is made by a simple rule:
a) when one acts, one is perhaps ACTING(-ing form)
b) when something is achieved, it is DONE (-ed form)
Can there be a simpler rule?

Erin
08-04-2002, 06:42 PM
-ED versus -ING

I guess the best distinction is made by a simple rule:
a) when one acts, one is perhaps ACTING(-ing form)
b) when something is achieved, it is DONE (-ed form)

Can there be a simpler rule?This sounds reasonable, and I would also like to reiterate:

-ing = DOING the action;
-ed = RECEIVING the action.

This is how I usually explain it to my students.

Erin