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Canuckonomist
02-02-2008, 01:29 AM
This is not to suggest superiority in any way, but it's more for other Canadian applicants to feel content that from a certain perspective, we have it pretty good, and to recommend that Canadian Ph.Ds (from the big 4 mostly,) may be a better than going below the Top 20 U.S/EUR schools.

As applicants, we have two shots at a Ph.D (well, so does everyone else, but do hear me out):

1. Apply for Ph.D right out of BA and apply to Master's in Canada/UK/EUR as a backup. If no Ph.D Acceptances that are worth it,
2. Attend Master's. Apply for Ph.Ds in U.S (Top 20) and Canada (UBC, UofT, Queen's, UWO)

This may seem strange to recommend Canadian applicants to choose the big canadian four over schools below the Top 20 range, especially based on the Department rankings by econphd.net, but my conversations with directors @ Queen's, as well as the faculty lists at the big four, tell me otherwise (in fact, the Queen's director suggests not to go below the top 15, but I think that's a bit much.) Apparently it's common knowledge (again, so the director tells me,) that Canadian schools tend to hire
Canadian Ph.Ds.

So, if you're a Canadian applying to Ph.D after a Master's, consider a Canadian Ph.D program, for both monetary purposes (UBC tuition is under $5000 a year, for example,) and for employment purposes instead of just going down the Econphd.net and applying to JHU, PSU, UVA, thinking places like Queen's and UWO are ranked too low.

Just a thought. For any Canadian Ph.D grads, please comment and tell me if I'm wrong, and if I'm being lied to.

*Note: this is thread does not suggest that Queen's, UBC, etc are better schools that PSU, JHU, UVA, or that the aforementioned US schools are subpar programs. Merely, that there may exist a modifier for Canadians who want to work in Canada.*

Karina 07
02-02-2008, 02:07 AM
I wonder if this could be better titled "Gotta love wanting to work in Canada". Although undoubtedly there is a *huge* overlap between your nationality and where you want to work, I'm just wondering if, say, Americans who wanted to work in Canada would also get perks from going to Canada for a PhD program. Again, while there's a huge, huge overlap, I've known an increasing number of Americans who want to leave the U.S. and personally I'd rather work for a few years first in the U.S. myself before returning to Canada.

Ibn Abbas
02-02-2008, 03:25 AM
My observation is that due to the much lower number of quality programs in Canada (only 4 really good ones...and then if you want to include the French one...then add U Montreal), competition at these top programs are much more severe than 21-70 US programs.

I am sure there are lots of Canadian students (and internationals who did their undergrad/MA in Canada) who will never make into those top 5 Canadian schools and hence will have to look into US as a second option. Since there's so many more places to go to in the US which provide a similar quality of education as UBC does, I think having these extra options like UVA and PSU are really great.

And after you finish your Ph.D, you will face the same severe competition of getting tenure at those top 5 Canadian schools, whereas there's so many more options in US. If one US school rejects you, there's almost always another one in the same range that will accept you. :)

flipecon
02-02-2008, 06:20 AM
i'd like to assume that you're right canuckonomist. coz then i dont have to do my gre and do lots of applications for US Phd.
but i'm not 100 percent sure about that coz most of the professors in the economics department at UBC, UofT, Queen's, and Western are from the top programs in US.
i am guessing that US Universities pay higher than the Canadian Universities. i might be wrong.
glad to hear from anyone on this.
The Canadian programs are relatively cheaper tho, compared to the ones in the states.

can_econ
02-02-2008, 06:25 AM
This is not to suggest superiority in any way, but it's more for other Canadian applicants to feel content that from a certain perspective, we have it pretty good, and to recommend that Canadian Ph.Ds (from the big 4 mostly,) may be a better than going below the Top 20 U.S/EUR schools.

As applicants, we have two shots at a Ph.D (well, so does everyone else, but do hear me out):

1. Apply for Ph.D right out of BA and apply to Master's in Canada/UK/EUR as a backup. If no Ph.D Acceptances that are worth it,
2. Attend Master's. Apply for Ph.Ds in U.S (Top 20) and Canada (UBC, UofT, Queen's, UWO)

This may seem strange to recommend Canadian applicants to choose the big canadian four over schools below the Top 20 range, especially based on the Department rankings by econphd.net, but my conversations with directors @ Queen's, as well as the faculty lists at the big four, tell me otherwise (in fact, the Queen's director suggests not to go below the top 15, but I think that's a bit much.) Apparently it's common knowledge (again, so the director tells me,) that Canadian schools tend to hire
Canadian Ph.Ds.

So, if you're a Canadian applying to Ph.D after a Master's, consider a Canadian Ph.D program, for both monetary purposes (UBC tuition is under $5000 a year, for example,) and for employment purposes instead of just going down the Econphd.net and applying to JHU, PSU, UVA, thinking places like Queen's and UWO are ranked too low.

Just a thought. For any Canadian Ph.D grads, please comment and tell me if I'm wrong, and if I'm being lied to.

*Note: this is thread does not suggest that Queen's, UBC, etc are better schools that PSU, JHU, UVA, or that the aforementioned US schools are subpar programs. Merely, that there may exist a modifier for Canadians who want to work in Canada.*
I don't think anyone in the PhD program at UBC is paying tuition anyways. You should mention that on the funding side, if you think you're competitive enough that you ought to on the margin at top 15 schools and competitive for research school jobs down the line, you ought to be competitive for SSHRC which pays quite a bit if you stay in Canada (actually, I've heard that the other Cdn schools fund their best PhD students well, but that's really through the grapevine, I'd imagine it varies depending on the student).

I agree that there's a bit of a Canadian economics network, and I think that Canadian schools can be off the map a bit compared to similarly ranked US schools - which cuts both ways depending on where you want to work. I think this does help efficiently match good Cdn MA students to Cdn PhDs, when it's easy for a good application to get lost in the pile or overlooked at comparable US schools where Cdn profs aren't as well known. Maybe this comes in to play a bit on the job market, but it's hard to say how much. I should point out that job market candidates from all 4 Canadian schools you mentioned have flyouts posted on bluwiki at top 50 type schools. Not bad.

I do think that if you aren't going to do your PhD in a top 10 department, fit becomes pretty important, more important than what country you're in. But between the 4 departments you mentioned it would be hard to not find a decent fit. Still, there are schools like Duke, PSU, etc which do similarly in research rankings to UBC, U of T, but tend to place a bit better. So even if you would strictly prefer a job in Canada to one in the US, there are reasons to look at US schools ranked >20. (you should always apply to a lot of places anyways, there's a lot of randomness).

In response to Karina's comment, I've really noticed that there aren't any Americans in UBC's PhD program (as far as I know); there were a couple in my MA class. This is part of why I think we're a bit off the radar for Americans. I think SSHRC funding and Canadian networks of contacts explains a lot of the matching of Cdn students to Cdn programs. There's a pretty big variance in US economics undergrad programs, and outside of the top 150 ranked research schools in the US I'd guess few US profs would be known at UBC, whereas most Cdn profs would be, the converse ought to hold for some similar US programs, so on average you'd expect Cdns to do slightly better at getting into Cdn schools, Americans slightly better at US schools. This is my best explanation for home-bias in where people do PhDs (aside from personal reasons). I'm still surprised at the lack of Americans here though.

Anyways, good luck all. Maybe I'll see some of you next year.

Olm
02-02-2008, 08:19 AM
Canuck, that's the approach I took. I applied to a few US schools around the low 20s (which I now found out could be in the top 20, depending on whose rankings you look at) and the rest are the "big 4" Canadian schools. Then again I have a pair of UK schools I was highly recommended to apply to so I threw those in there as well.

iugi85
02-02-2008, 10:48 AM
... and you have also a job market! this seems to be "natural" for you, but for example in italy we have only three universities that have job market (igier-bocconi, iue-florence, collegio carlo alberto-turin), so it is very difficult to find an academic job in italy because the universities that do not have the job market system basically hire the internal candidates and that's it. for example, carlo rubbia (nobel prize in physics) could not teach in lecce but at the same time got an offer from harvard...

ekonomiks
02-02-2008, 05:05 PM
Apparently it's common knowledge (again, so the director tells me,) that Canadian schools tend to hire
Canadian Ph.Ds.

Lower-ranked Canadian schools tend to hire PhD from top Canadian schools, which in turn hire PhD from American schools. So if you graduate from one of the top 4 Canadian, you can expect a job at Simon Frasier or Ryerson. And if you want a job at a top-4 school, you'd better graduate from a top American school.

Canuckonomist
02-02-2008, 11:10 PM
I would disagree a bit. 15% of Queen's Faculty are from queen's (6/40). 2 have Ph.Ds from McMaster and 2 from UWO. (1 from UBC) There are a few others from lesser known schools, too. So, 1/4 of our faculty are Canadian schools, but it may be a thought that Schools like to hire their own students?

For Toronto, 10 of 59 current faculty (not including lecturers and Emeritus faculty) are from Canadian schools, almost exclusively Queen's and UofT.

UBC is harder to judge. 10 of their 35 faculty don't have their Ph.D locations online. From what is posted, 6 of their 25 faculty are Canadian, mostly Queen's, UBC.

So it doesn't seem that you'd be too hard-pressed to find a job at a big 3 Canadian university as a top 4 graduate.

Olm
02-02-2008, 11:36 PM
In the same breath, good luck getting a good academic job in Canada if you don't go to the big 4.

Canuckonomist
02-02-2008, 11:41 PM
Indeed :rolleyes:

Olm
02-02-2008, 11:44 PM
Indeed :rolleyes:

You're at Queen's, right? (guessing by your location)

werther
02-03-2008, 12:47 AM
Lower-ranked Canadian schools tend to hire PhD from top Canadian schools, which in turn hire PhD from American schools. So if you graduate from one of the top 4 Canadian, you can expect a job at Simon Frasier or Ryerson. And if you want a job at a top-4 school, you'd better graduate from a top American school.


This sounds more realistic to me than other opinions floating around this thread. unless of course you're from top 4 Canadian PhD and your job market paper was exceptional (then you probably have a shot at teaching at that top 4 level)

Canuckonomist
02-03-2008, 02:30 AM
Yup, I'm @ Queen's.

Olm
02-03-2008, 06:03 AM
This sounds more realistic to me than other opinions floating around this thread. unless of course you're from top 4 Canadian PhD and your job market paper was exceptional (then you probably have a shot at teaching at that top 4 level)

There is a guy who got his PhD from U Western Ontario that went all the way up to U Penn (not Penn State... U Penn!)... here is his profile:

Information about Iourii Manovskii (http://www.econ.upenn.edu/cgi-bin/mecon/bin/view.cgi?id=162)

No doubt he is the exception rather than the rule. This goes to show that an exceptional job market paper and good research means that you're mobile.

flipecon
02-03-2008, 07:23 AM
canuckonomist, i was wondering, what is queen's strength? how's the program there? how's it like living there. im curious coz i really want to go to queen's but iv only been once there, and i havent had the chance to talk to anyone in the econ dept.

werther
02-03-2008, 08:14 AM
There is a guy who got his PhD from U Western Ontario that went all the way up to U Penn (not Penn State... U Penn!)... here is his profile:

Information about Iourii Manovskii (http://www.econ.upenn.edu/cgi-bin/mecon/bin/view.cgi?id=162)

No doubt he is the exception rather than the rule. This goes to show that an exceptional job market paper and good research means that you're mobile.


I believe I said "realistic"..

If you want to talk about exceptions, there is also a dude who got his PhD from Toronto who is now teaching at Harvard. But I don't think these examples are rather conducive to the current topic at hand

Olm
02-03-2008, 10:45 AM
I believe I said "realistic"..

If you want to talk about exceptions, there is also a dude who got his PhD from Toronto who is now teaching at Harvard. But I don't think these examples are rather conducive to the current topic at hand

You misinterpreted my post.

Its contents mean nothing beyond what was written, and was not a challenge to your specific comment.

I'm sorry about the confusion.

Canuckonomist
02-03-2008, 12:34 PM
This is not to suggest that Queen's has a top program, but there are more than just a handful of Queen's Ph.Ds at Queen's, Toronto and U of T (12% of faculty). From talking to the department these days, it seems that Queen's Ph.Ds are rising in demand.

Now, to continue the previous thought, but to also answer flipecon's question, it strikes me as odd that Queen's Ph.Ds as opposed to UBC's Ph.Ds are more common in the top econ departments. Queen's seems to be just slightly above average in most things, but nothing really sticks out. I would say that it has strong faculty members here and there, such as Boadway with Taxation stuff and Milne with financial economics (we have quite a number of financial economics courses, and Milne taught 3 of them this year.) Viero is an up-and-comer working under Milne. We do well in micro, with strong micro theorists such as Wang, Pak, and Bergin (Viero is also doing interesting work in this field,) with two strong econometricians, MacKinnon and Shimotsu. We also have a number of people working in Labour econ. But like I mentioned, we're sort of just above average in everything, but I don't believe stellar in too much (outside of Financial Economics, which I believe is done very, very well.)

It's funny how I've heard people say that macro is done well here, when I find our best people are Financial econ/Micro. If I didn't already exhaust the Financial econ stream here, I'd consider this as my safety for a Ph.D, if I didn't get into top 15 U.S.

Oh, and a note, we have a really stellar Ph.D coming out of Queen's right now that I hear has been offered a job at LSE. But, he is a brilliant guy, and he was working under Milne, so it may just be a product of his nature and Milne's nurture.