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ThePho
02-13-2008, 11:22 PM
Hello TM'ers!

I wanted to provide some color to my situation an ask a simple question, if I may.

First! I have been reading many posts here and it is evident that advice that is given here is both sound and thorough. I wanted to shed light on some of my goals and aspirations to see if I could be given the best path for me.

I wanted to say that I respect research and many of you are going to be going to top schools and conducting top research which will change economics and business forever, for this I salute you.

My goal, for better or for worse, is not as noble. I am a junior and at my university the economics professors suck! There is no graduate courses and no stress on mathematics. I am at the top of my class and I consider myself to be very bright. Here is the rub, I want to be like my professors. They NEVER conduct research, one of my professors has never been published since he has worked at any university. He held an assistant position where he got his PhD and then at my school he worked up the ranks to professor. All of these business professors get paid well, drive nice cars, work 25 hours a week, and spend their summers playing golf. And that is what I want to do and I want to know where and how I can accomplish this.

Please do not flame me for my lack of motivation, I feel as if I am making an economic decision. I rather work at Random College and make a starting salary of $50,000 with future opportunity of $100,000 in 20 years and never do more than teach 3-4 classes, conduct research, doing conferences, etc.
Working 25 hours a week (for 8 months) and making $50,000 (~$63 an hour) is better than working 60 hours a week (for 10 months) and making $80,000 (~$34 an hour).

I am willing to teach any business subject but I prefer economics. So I am looking for easy Econ programs that I can coast through and live fat and happy trading stocks or playing golf on my free time.

Thanks

ThePho

TruDog
02-13-2008, 11:34 PM
If you are willing to teach any business subject, go to business school and get a PhD in something besides finance. Or see if an MBA can get you a job. Economics PhD programs aren't easy, wherever you go.

And good luck getting through a PhD and hired with that kind of mindset, to be perfectly honest. There are lots of very strong candidates who get squeezed into positions like the one you desire.

Canuckonomist
02-13-2008, 11:37 PM
I can't say authoritatively, but the lower in the rankings you look, chances are the easier/less rigorous the program. As an example, (this is not to put down American University at all, but,) AU's 2-course graduate sequence in analysis are equivalent to our second year and part of our third year courses (which I believe are equivalent to some higher-ranked program's first and second year.) This may be true for their econ courses, or may just imply that their econ courses are less mathematically-rigorous. I cannot back-up those two inferences.

If you want to mostly teach, or only teach, there are teaching-based universities everywhere. Here in Canada, there are a good number of them, and a more well-known one such as Brock may pay well. I hear that currently for Finance profs (so my finance prof, who is well known in the field says,) universities in Canada pay handsomely.

It is an economic decision, and it's all about finding what makes you happy. I don't know about the existence of the particular luxurious life you've described, though, so I can't give you exact path details.

econphilomath
02-13-2008, 11:50 PM
Read "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman.

Then feel sorry for people in the developing world because the world is not flat at all and people like you can actually do this type of thing.

Regarding the quetion, I would follow TruDogs advice.

GymShorts
02-14-2008, 12:02 AM
Two words: Marketing PhD.

buckykatt
02-14-2008, 12:06 AM
I hope that you want to be like your profs *except* for the part about sucking. The world needs good economics teachers as much as it needs good economics researchers--some would even say it needs them more.

The path to your goal really isn't much different than the path to a position at a research-oriented school, though: get a Ph.D. from the best program you can. In your case, though, you can be more confident about reaching your goal even if you're unable to attend a top econ program. Don't forget, BTW, that a Ph.D. in economics from a business school is also an option, and might suit you better, though admissions aren't necessarily less competitive.

But an econ Ph.D. is a lot of work, and requires lots of math preparation. You might want to consider whether earning an MA in econ, an MBA, or even a JD might work better for you. With any of these degrees you could teach at a community college. (Teaching economics in a high school might also be an option, though I'm not sure that's the way to achieve maximal laziness.) True, you wouldn't earn as much; but you'd also invest 4-5 fewer years in earning a degree, and that's a lot of opportunity cost saved. Opportunities for picking up outside work, or changing careers, might also be better with an MBA or JD.

One word of warning: 25 hours may be an underestimate of your workload at a "teaching school". If you assume a 4-4 load and two hours of prep time for each hour of lecture, you're looking at 36 hours per week. Of course, after you've taught econ 101 a few times, your prep time could easily be half that, so it's still not a bad deal--especially once you consider how flexible your time is and assuming you really enjoy the beach during the summer.

buckykatt
02-14-2008, 12:07 AM
Two words: Marketing PhD.

LOL I wish I'd said that.

AstralTraveller
02-14-2008, 12:28 AM
They NEVER conduct research, one of my professors has never been published since he has worked at any university. He held an assistant position where he got his PhD and then at my school he worked up the ranks to professor. All of these business professors get paid well, drive nice cars, work 25 hours a week, and spend their summers playing golf.

it sounds to me you're describing exactly one of my colleagues from the school I work at.... sadly, I lost respect for him.

Sorry I can't objectively recommend you anything. People like this presumably *have* to exist, and it's fine for me there is such people. It's just that I can't possibly conceive how could I be like them.

Good luck anyway! I like it that you are up-front and don't want to pretend you want to do something you are not doing anyway. :p

AstralTraveller
02-14-2008, 12:38 AM
Two words: Marketing PhD.

:mad:

Your statement is not fair. Maybe in the past mediocre scholars pursued half-assed management degrees, but now when many top schools are offering econ based management programs comparable to Economics programs, to put everyone inside the same bag is disrespectful and inaccurate.

If you take a look at the kind of research made by Marketing doctors from places like Chicago, Duke or Minnesota, you'll find out it's basically Industrial Organization.

ThePho
02-14-2008, 12:44 AM
Okay...

Maybe I came off TOO lazy and off. I

am a double major (Economics and History) and a minor (Finance) and my school is a well known LAC. I maintained a 3.8 GPA.

I do not have the math preparation, like many people here I have Calculus and a econometric course, and that is it. I am more of an empirical guy, could not care less about the math. However, I believe in Economics and Finance and I want to be a great teacher and I would love to instill that into my students.

I do not want a PhD in Marketing because I do not respect that, but I really would like one in Econ or Finance, but I just do not want to do research, I rather teach more classes, any ideas? Specifically programs for me?

How quantitative is something like MIT (Economic Sociology Program) or Org Behavior, or just management. Is a DBA respected?

Lastly, if you get a PhD in something besides finance and econ, can you still teach it? (maybe a dumb question)

pevdoki1
02-14-2008, 12:48 AM
Why don't you get a teaching degree in particular?

For example, something like this at Columbia: Teachers College - Columbia University: Browser Upgrade Requested (http://www.tc.columbia.edu/)

A PhD is a research degree... I really don't think it's a good idea to get a PhD in something unless you're 100% interested in learning the material.

buckykatt
02-14-2008, 01:12 AM
Is a DBA respected?


Do you mean "ABD", as in "all but dissertation"? If so, that's not a degree, it's just shorthand for having reached a certain point in the progress toward a Ph.D. As a practical matter, anyone who is ABD could have a master's degree awarded and (with or without the master's) could get the same kinds of positions someone with a master's could get, but they would typically still need to finish their Ph.D. to get a permanent position at a 4-year school.

buckykatt
02-14-2008, 01:15 AM
Maybe in the past mediocre scholars pursued half-assed management degrees, but now when many top schools are offering econ based management programs comparable to Economics programs, to put everyone inside the same bag is disrespectful and inaccurate.


Yeah, you might be right.

Still funny, though. ;)

AstralTraveller
02-14-2008, 01:25 AM
Do you mean "ABD", as in "all but dissertation"? If so, that's not a degree

DBA is "doctor of business administration". Harvard Business School and Boston U give this degree instead of the PhD on some of their management specializations.

buckykatt
02-14-2008, 01:30 AM
DBA is "doctor of business administration".

LOL! Well, ya learn something new every day, right?

Seems like a weird abbreviation for a business program to use, given that it's also short for "doing business as", but I guess if C++ programmers can overload, so can business faculty...

ThePho
02-14-2008, 01:32 AM
This is what I mean by DBA (Doctor of Business Administration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Business_Administration))

In response Pevdoki I want a PhD to be able to teach at the college level. And I am willing to do some research just not 1-2 articles a year. I want to be a teacher to inspire the youth.

I want to know how best to complete this goal in a business subject.

ThePho
02-14-2008, 02:20 AM
any responses?

AstralTraveller
02-14-2008, 02:35 AM
any responses?

Well, for teaching and little research, why don't you approach a DBA from a european institution? Strategy and General Management still allow you to teach econ and finance, as long as you dominate the basics. FWIW.

Olm
02-14-2008, 02:37 AM
Looks like a troll post to me.

ThePho
02-14-2008, 02:44 AM
Well I am from Maine but go to school on New Hampshire, so I would *like* to stay in new england for both my doctorate work and then to teach.

I am not sure what a troll post is but I am assuming that means it is a lie? If that is the meaning it is not.

I am truly just looking for a doctorate program, in business, that I can then teach at an OK institution, above a community college, and be able to knock out some research once in a great while, teach bright kids, and give back that way. Spend my time off to hang out, give back to the community, and have a good time.

I am not looking to make top dollar or bottom dollar. I will take $50-$60K starting off with a hope of $100K after 10-15 years.

Among my above questions is the DBA well respected?

AstralTraveller
02-14-2008, 03:13 AM
I am truly just looking for a doctorate program, in business, that I can then teach at an OK institution, above a community college, and be able to knock out some research once in a great while, teach bright kids, and give back that way. Spend my time off to hang out, give back to the community, and have a good time.

Among my above questions is the DBA well respected?

Yes, in my humble opinion a DBA should be equally respected, as long as you pursue it from a respected institution. Boston U has an extraordinary faculty as far as I'm concerned. And Harvard is Harvard.

But, you should be aware that admissions are currently as competitive (or more) at B-schools than at Econ. And your lack of math preparation might be detrimental against you.

ThePho
02-14-2008, 03:25 AM
My lack of math is detrimental in any business program or just for economics?

I want to teach courses like investment, personal finance, case studies, etc. There is no non-crazy quant school for business econ or finance?

AstralTraveller
02-14-2008, 03:37 AM
My lack of math is detrimental in any business program or just for economics?

I want to teach courses like investment, personal finance, case studies, etc. There is no non-crazy quant school for business econ or finance?

For Strategy, Finance, Marketing, Operations, Information Systems and Econ, math is mandatory. For OB/HR it could be less important at *some* places.

And, sorry, there is no non-crazy quant school for any self respected business school in econ or finance (self respected = top 100), unless you go to lesser ranked european b-schools.

Please take this the best possible way: I have the feeling you don't have a clue what a Finance or Bus Econ PhD is about nowadays. 20 years ago it was plausible to get a PhD in those subjects with little math, but that is not true anymore.

In particular you asked about the new Econ Sociology program at MIT. Although probably it is less mathematical than others, it will still be heavily quantitative :(

themanagement
02-14-2008, 03:48 AM
I'd like to weigh in here:

Your argument sounds, to me, like you'd like to minimize your effort and maximize your pay and happiness. Those three just aren't going to fit. 2/3 wouldn't be half bad.

For instance, you can make a lot of money with minimal effort in consulting. However, your soul might not like it quite so much. Likewise you can make a great deal with a Ph.D in Econ like you're stating, but you need to make a real commitment.

A PhD in Economics is not something to be taken lightly. Whenever you see people leaving a program, there are usually two reasons:
1) Insufficient math preparation
2) Research doesn't fit with faculty

Clearly both might be hurdles unless you have a change in attitude.


<P.S. The Management has taken a sabbatical and I will be filling in>

pevdoki1
02-14-2008, 03:54 AM
If you're looking to minimize the amount of math in your program, you might want to look into heterodox departments like UMass-Amherst. It is my understanding that nowadays even lowly ranked schools (say, below top 100) try to be as up to date with modern economics as possible, and that means some math is going to be involved.

ThePho
02-14-2008, 04:03 AM
For Strategy, Finance, Marketing, Operations, Information Systems and Econ, math is mandatory. For OB/HR it could be less important at *some* places.

Operations? and marketing? really?

As for not knowing much, I do agree because that is why I came here. If I knew it all I would not.

Also, what math is needed for management programs?

And with a management PhD can a class like investments be taught?

ThePho
02-14-2008, 04:07 AM
I forgot to add. I am not Math adverse, I am willing to use my math skills and pick up new ones. What I am saying is I want to do this straight through therefore any math I need I want to pick up in passing, not take 1-2 more years.

And we have a prof. at my school who did a top 5 OB PhD at a b-school. He knows about as much math as history professor.

AstralTraveller
02-14-2008, 04:15 AM
Operations? and marketing? really?

Yeah, really. You better believe me.


As for not knowing much, I do agree because that is why I came here. If I knew it all I would not.

Agreed. I apologise for any possible previous harshness :blush:


Also, what math is needed for management programs?

I would say you need as a bare minimum the usual 1 year Calc, plus one year of a Statistics/Econometrics sequences, plus Linear Algebra and anything else you could add. For the Microeconomics sequence (there's one at almost every b-school), you will also need Real Analysis, but I don't know if it's mandatory, since I don't know how many B-schools use MasColell-Whinston-Green on their Micro courses.


And with a management PhD can a class like investments be taught?

Given the career path you are looking for, I'd say yes, sure. This will be especially true at small departments, where a little amount of people have the whole teaching responsibilities of the department.

BTW, I wouldn't overlook the possibility of UMass-Amherst or other similarly heterodox department. Those programs are increasingly scarce as time goes by (does anybody remember the Notre Dame Econ Department controversy a few years ago?)

Anyway, I hope to be of help :D

ThePho
02-14-2008, 04:23 AM
That was helpful, thank you.

I have 1 year of calc and econometrics. I am sure I can pick up the linear alg or take a course the summer before I enter, so from that front I am OK.

I also scored a 780 on my GMAT, which should help.

Now given that all of my options are open, besides finance and economics. Which is the easiest to get into, and which one do I have the best exit opps?

In regards to teaching finance with a MGT PhD is that true for only small departments or do many allow cross teaching?

Just for fun, how much do History PhDs make AND is it hard to get into a Economics History program, if there is such a thing.

econorama
02-14-2008, 04:27 AM
Originally Posted by ThePho:
I also scored a 780 on my GMAT, which should help. Except that no doctoral program is going to accept the GMAT. You'll need to take the GRE. But if you got a 780 on the GMAT, you'll probably get a good quant score on the GRE.

Why did you take the GMAT? Have you also considered getting an MBA?

AstralTraveller
02-14-2008, 04:32 AM
Except that no doctoral program is going to accept the GMAT. You'll need to take the GRE.

Actually that is not true. Several B-schools even prefer the GMAT over the GRE (Purdue's Krannert comes to mind as not accepting the GRE, while NYU Stern seemingly prefers the GMAT over the GRE).

ThePho's GMAT score is truly great, so it should help him land a nice admission, esp. if he beefes up his application with math and research. Also, please don't tell anybody outside this forum you plan on not researching but mainly teaching!

ThePho
02-14-2008, 04:40 AM
I took the GMAT soley for business school PhDs. The only reason I even took it was because my school was offering free Kaplan courses, so I figured why not!

I do not plan to tell anyone I am focused just on teaching because it might change! The reason I am more into teaching is because of my training in History where some of the greatest historians were not researching to write books, and do what has not been done, but to teach the young people of their day. Maybe it is a weird way of looking at it.

I am willing to take some Math, maybe 1 or 2 more classes, but I do not want to be a quant. I want to get into the best school I can, and sadly I rather teach economics or finance, but that seems out of the question unless i OVERLOAD for 2 more years full of math, and that is a place I do not want to be.

I will have good reco's, good GMAT, good SOP (I hope), and good academic record, besides Math. Will I really be barred from top B-School programs?

Astral, I truly thank you for your comments, they are helpful.

econorama
02-14-2008, 04:43 AM
Originally Posted by AstralTraveller:
Actually that is not true. Several B-schools even prefer the GMAT over the GRE (Purdue's Krannert comes to mind as not accepting the GRE, while NYU Stern seemingly prefers the GMAT over the GRE).I stand corrected. Maybe it's just that every business PhD program I looked at wanted the GRE.

AstralTraveller
02-14-2008, 04:50 AM
Astral, I truly thank you for your comments, they are helpful.

You're welcome :)

And, no, you are not ruled out completely from top schools if you have less math. Take for instance Emory's Goizueta: a very good --if relatively new-- B-school with a decent (top 25?) doctoral program with focus in general management. While math will be important, it will be probably less so than at other schools. And with your (additional) math it should suffice. There are other aspects of every application you will want to address (research experience, for instance)

I encourage you to take a couple of intensive math courses and get an RA position (for a real researcher, that is...not one from your school :rolleyes:) and then...best of lucks! :clover:

Luckykid
02-14-2008, 05:18 AM
Actually that is not true. Several B-schools even prefer the GMAT over the GRE (Purdue's Krannert comes to mind as not accepting the GRE).
Looking on their site they sure seem to accept them...if not I wasted $86 :(

Roy

AstralTraveller
02-14-2008, 11:57 AM
Looking on their site they sure seem to accept them...if not I wasted $86 :(

Roy

Roy....did you apply to the Econ program at Krannert, or to one of their other (mgmt) concentrations? For the Econ program only accepted the GRE, not the GMAT. OB/HR accepts both:

From their PhD website FAQ:


Q: What are the testing requirements associated with the application procedure?

A: The Economics Ph.D. Program requires the GRE.

The Management Ph.D. Program requires the GMAT.

The Organizational Behavior and Human Resource Management (OBHR) Program accepts either the GRE or GMAT.

Smileysquared
02-14-2008, 04:47 PM
Nothing is really ever easy.......

YAHA
02-14-2008, 08:25 PM
Hello TM'ers!

I wanted to provide some color to my situation an ask a simple question, if I may.

First! I have been reading many posts here and it is evident that advice that is given here is both sound and thorough. I wanted to shed light on some of my goals and aspirations to see if I could be given the best path for me.

I wanted to say that I respect research and many of you are going to be going to top schools and conducting top research which will change economics and business forever, for this I salute you.

My goal, for better or for worse, is not as noble. I am a junior and at my university the economics professors suck! There is no graduate courses and no stress on mathematics. I am at the top of my class and I consider myself to be very bright. Here is the rub, I want to be like my professors. They NEVER conduct research, one of my professors has never been published since he has worked at any university. He held an assistant position where he got his PhD and then at my school he worked up the ranks to professor. All of these business professors get paid well, drive nice cars, work 25 hours a week, and spend their summers playing golf. And that is what I want to do and I want to know where and how I can accomplish this.

Please do not flame me for my lack of motivation, I feel as if I am making an economic decision. I rather work at Random College and make a starting salary of $50,000 with future opportunity of $100,000 in 20 years and never do more than teach 3-4 classes, conduct research, doing conferences, etc.
Working 25 hours a week (for 8 months) and making $50,000 (~$63 an hour) is better than working 60 hours a week (for 10 months) and making $80,000 (~$34 an hour).

I am willing to teach any business subject but I prefer economics. So I am looking for easy Econ programs that I can coast through and live fat and happy trading stocks or playing golf on my free time.

Thanks

ThePho


This is the best post I have come across on this forum. :D

ThePho
02-15-2008, 01:02 AM
If anyone has more advice I am open.