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fp3690
02-14-2008, 03:19 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that everyone in this place makes the implicit assumption that everyone else is male. I just figured that it would be interested to see what is the gender ratio in TM and in econ phd's in general. So if any of you have any idea how to set up on of those poll thingies, please do so.

TruDog
02-14-2008, 03:23 AM
Based on my experience, females make up about one-fourth to one-third of all econ PhD students, with a slightly larger proportion of domestic applicants being female than foreign applicants.

(In case you're curious, I'm an American male.)

AstralTraveller
02-14-2008, 03:28 AM
Maybe the election of nicknames could help. I wouldn't have imagined that TheBrothersKaramazov was a female TMer. On the other side, Smileysquared, together with a Sesame St. avatar, really seemed to be a girl (and she is). Anyway, I stand by what TruDog said.

Luckykid
02-14-2008, 03:36 AM
I have a penis as well

Roy

AstralTraveller
02-14-2008, 03:39 AM
Is that word allowed here?

Luckykid
02-14-2008, 03:40 AM
Is that word allowed here?
Its a proper word. I am sure if they had a medical section it would be used.

I'm on thin ice as is...

Roy

Karina 07
02-14-2008, 04:12 AM
You know, I always find myself making this assumption, too. As you might tell by my hanging out online far more than is good for me, I am the kind of person who frequents forums (even aside from this) fairly frequently, and I've found that my assumption is that people are male even on boards where you wouldn't expect any skewed gender ratio. I think maybe that's because when people post, there are no visual cues like social smiling or whatnot (I mean, apart from the more obvious visual cues). When people post, it's more reflective and bypasses some social norms. Just a thought.

Olm
02-14-2008, 04:13 AM
I think I speak for everyone when I say that there are no girls on the internet.

Andronicus
02-14-2008, 04:39 AM
Fine.

asquare
02-14-2008, 04:52 AM
Guys, I think this is what women mean when they complain that economics has an "old boys club" atmosphere. I know the kidding around is all intended to be good natured, but I would guess that these jokes might make some (obviously not all) women feel uncomfortable or out of place. Most of us would probably agree that if these jokes were about race (substitute "blacks" for "girls" in some of the comments above) they would be inappropriate, right?

I don't mean to put a damper on the party, but let's err on the side of being inclusive, and return to the OP's factual question about gender ratios.

I think that at U-Mich, the average class falls into the range TruDog mentioned -- between 1/4 and 1/3 female.

08Applicant
02-14-2008, 05:17 AM
Here's a friendly hint on how you can reconcile an online persona with the poster's gender. The internet: where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are federal agents.

buckykatt
02-14-2008, 05:35 AM
Looking at three recent studies of econ grad program outcomes with various samples, the percent female ranges from 26% to 28%.

Karina 07
02-14-2008, 06:06 AM
Berkeley's inclusive. My year is 38%, and if I recall correctly people in other years have informally said it seems a bit low, it's usually between 1/3 and 1/2 but more on the upper side of that.

buckykatt
02-14-2008, 06:07 AM
"Inclusive" is such a loaded word...

Olm
02-14-2008, 06:09 AM
Guys, I think this is what women mean when they complain that economics has an "old boys club" atmosphere. I know the kidding around is all intended to be good natured, but I would guess that these jokes might make some (obviously not all) women feel uncomfortable or out of place. Most of us would probably agree that if these jokes were about race (substitute "blacks" for "girls" in some of the comments above) they would be inappropriate, right?

I don't mean to put a damper on the party, but let's err on the side of being inclusive, and return to the OP's factual question about gender ratios.

I think that at U-Mich, the average class falls into the range TruDog mentioned -- between 1/4 and 1/3 female.

I am offended at the possibility that anybody could have been possibly offended at some harmless jokes.

Karina 07
02-14-2008, 06:11 AM
Honestly, I thought this thread was more about this particular forum rather than grad school programs (as reflected in my first post, below), and to me it's more interesting that way.


You know, I always find myself making this assumption, too. As you might tell by my hanging out online far more than is good for me, I am the kind of person who frequents forums (even aside from this) fairly frequently, and I've found that my assumption is that people are male even on boards where you wouldn't expect any skewed gender ratio. I think maybe that's because when people post, there are no visual cues like social smiling or whatnot (I mean, apart from the more obvious visual cues). When people post, it's more reflective and bypasses some social norms. Just a thought.

Karina 07
02-14-2008, 06:15 AM
I am offended at the possibility that anybody could have been possibly offended at some harmless jokes.

Personally, I find it exasperating/bad taste. It's a reminder there's still something to joke about, i.e. the state of the world is unideal.

buckykatt
02-14-2008, 06:23 AM
Personally, I find it exasperating/bad taste. It's a reminder there's still something to joke about, i.e. the state of the world is unideal.

Less than ideal for whom? On what basis? Do you have the sense that there are hordes of women clamoring to become academic economists who are somehow left outside the gates? Or some reason to believe that we're losing future Nobel winners to sociology?

What test would we use to figure out whether we have an inefficient gender allocation? I'd guess that we'd need to look at the marginal male and female economist and see if they perform equally...

Olm
02-14-2008, 06:27 AM
Personally, I find it exasperating/bad taste. It's a reminder there's still something to joke about, i.e. the state of the world is unideal.

If you did not find it funny, it was not for you. It has nothing to do with the state of the world, or your bank account, or that guy that didn't call you back two weeks ago because he dropped your phone number in an ash tray and was too afraid to pick it out because it was on fire because his friend put his cigar on it by mistake and decided it would be funny to see him panic and scurry over something like a woman's phone number and because he knows that it's been a while since he found somebody nice and interesting to talk so as a result he was afraid of losing his squash partner since the prospect of a relationship scares him (as most relationships tend to be time consuming).

buckykatt
02-14-2008, 06:30 AM
Looking at three recent studies of econ grad program outcomes with various samples, the percent female ranges from 26% to 28%.

Hmm... I misread one table. The above should have said 26% to 34%, which pretty much jives with what karina and asquare said above.

Karina 07
02-14-2008, 06:31 AM
Less than ideal for whom? On what basis? Do you have the sense that there are hordes of women clamoring to become academic economists who are somehow left outside the gates? Or some reason to believe that we're losing future Nobel winners to sociology?

What test would we use to figure out whether we have an inefficient gender allocation? I'd guess that we'd need to look at the marginal male and female economist and see if they perform equally...

Jeez, I'm not even talking about joking about the discipline, I was actually referring to Olm's "everyone knows there are no girls on the internet" line. Like the only stuff I saw actual joking going on about (I don't even know how a joke on the discipline would go).

It's just kind of annoying that people still joke about that. I'd have liked to think society moved on.

buckykatt
02-14-2008, 06:36 AM
Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Though... I'm not a woman, but I have played one on the Internet. ;) It's amazing how much nicer guys are to you in an online game when they think you're a woman. Until you blow up their ship, of course.

Karina 07
02-14-2008, 06:36 AM
If you did not find it funny, it was not for you. It has nothing to do with the state of the world

I'm just sick of arguing with people, someone else argue for me.

Do you believe any jokes are ever bad taste? A joke about a dead guy at a funeral to his widow? Then the state of the world is relevant for jokes.

I'm going to step out of here and get back to work, a bit disappointed.

Karina 07
02-14-2008, 06:37 AM
Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Though... I'm not a woman, but I have played one on the Internet. ;)

It's cool, I've played a man. ;)

Cheers.

buckykatt
02-14-2008, 06:40 AM
I'm just sick of arguing with people

Hey, what else can we do? It's not like we're going to get an acceptance email at 2 AM!

Oh, yeah. I have homework to do...

Olm
02-14-2008, 06:50 AM
I'm just sick of arguing with people, someone else argue for me.

Do you believe any jokes are ever bad taste? A joke about a dead guy at a funeral to his widow? Then the state of the world is relevant for jokes.

I'm going to step out of here and get back to work, a bit disappointed.

Do you believe that people shouldn't be allowed to attempt to inject humor in a conversation because of the possibility that someone might be offended? If your skin isn't thick enough for something as innocuous as a joke, imagine how you will feel when people rip your job market paper to shreds in front of a crowd of 50+ people when you're on the market.

econorama
02-14-2008, 07:31 AM
Originally Posted by Olm:
If you did not find it funny, it was not for you. It has nothing to do with the state of the world, or your bank account, or that guy that didn't call you back two weeks ago because he dropped your phone number in an ash tray and was too afraid to pick it out because it was on fire because his friend put his cigar on it by mistake and decided it would be funny to see him panic and scurry over something like a woman's phone number and because he knows that it's been a while since he found somebody nice and interesting to talk so as a result he was afraid of losing his squash partner since the prospect of a relationship scares him (as most relationships tend to be time consuming).See, I thought your first comment was funny, but this comment wasn't. It's one of those clichéd jokes about how if women react negatively to something, it must be because they're obsessing over some guy who did them wrong. I don't have a sense of humor about the comment because it's said too often by people who mean it. It may not be as bad as assuming that when a woman argues with you she must be PMSing, but it's close.

I don't know you personally. Maybe you don't mean a word of anything that you type, and it's all supposed to be taken as a joke. But you have to remember that on the internet, it's rarely clear what's meant earnestly and what's meant jokingly.


If your skin isn't thick enough for something as innocuous as a joke...That assumes that all jokes are innocuous, which is a flawed premise.

signal08
02-14-2008, 07:35 AM
i'm a girl. :)

dr_Shpak
02-14-2008, 08:53 AM
Me too.
My user name is more like for a boy so i made an avatar ;)

trjohnson
02-14-2008, 09:09 AM
Internet drama makes my die a little inside.

And for the record, I'm a dude.

bertthepuppy
02-14-2008, 12:51 PM
I am also one of the few females on the forum. I think it's great though...hopefully the gender ratio will play to my advantage as one of my recommenders always says "it's rare that American females have the necessary math background for econ PhDs"...also, there will be less drama in a program with less females in my opinion...:D...I can say this because I'm a female.

Valhalla
02-14-2008, 01:51 PM
hopefully the gender ratio will play to my advantage as one of my recommenders always says "it's rare that American females have the necessary math background for econ PhDs"...also, there will be less drama in a program with less females in my opinion...:D...I can say this because I'm a female.

If there are some women out ther who feed stereotypes like you the others should not be wondering about some men out there making fun about exactly those things... further considering the first part of your statement: :yuck:!!!!! I hope you want to be admitted because of your study performance and not because you are in the lucky situation to have a vagina---

asquare
02-14-2008, 02:29 PM
Do you believe that people shouldn't be allowed to attempt to inject humor in a conversation because of the possibility that someone might be offended? If your skin isn't thick enough for something as innocuous as a joke, imagine how you will feel when people rip your job market paper to shreds in front of a crowd of 50+ people when you're on the market.
Shredding the job market paper is about the paper, not the person. (It's also part of training economists and filtering work, but we'll leave that aside for the moment.) I think there is a difference between criticizing someone's work and making disparaging comments about personal characteristics over which they have no control. Gender, race, and physical appearance fall into the latter category.

I'm not saying anything about whether or not people should "be allowed to attempt to inject humor." I'm saying that what you are calling humor is what some other people think creates unwelcoming enviornments in economics and some other hard sciences. And I think that it is better for the dicipline to be more inclusive, not less.

Olm
02-14-2008, 04:23 PM
See, I thought your first comment was funny, but this comment wasn't. It's one of those clichéd jokes about how if women react negatively to something, it must be because they're obsessing over some guy who did them wrong.

Nope, it wasn't one of those jokes. The joke was the long run-on explanation at the end, and not the idea you expressed. Your misinterpreted it.


But you have to remember that on the internet, it's rarely clear what's meant earnestly and what's meant jokingly.

Because it is realistic to think that there are honestly no women on the internet? ...


That assumes that all jokes are innocuous, which is a flawed premise.

Your argument leads into semantics territory, which is why I do not accept it.


I think there is a difference between criticizing someone's work and making disparaging comments about personal characteristics over which they have no control. Gender, race, and physical appearance fall into the latter category.

Jokes aren't disparaging remarks.

econorama
02-14-2008, 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by Olm:
Nope, it wasn't one of those jokes. The joke was the long run-on explanation at the end, and not the idea you expressed. Your misinterpreted it.Even if I accept your explanation, it still goes back to the idea that misinterpretation is more likely online and should therefore be taken into account.


Because it is realistic to think that there are honestly no women on the internet? ...Of course not, which is why I thought THAT comment was funny. It was too obviously unrealistic to be taken seriously.

08Applicant
02-14-2008, 07:30 PM
Personally, I find it exasperating/bad taste. It's a reminder there's still something to joke about, i.e. the state of the world is unideal.

I don't enjoy being reminded of this fact either. But...we study economics...

Can't. reconcile. the. two... brain. hurting.

Oh, I'm overwhlemed by the irony.

Olm
02-14-2008, 07:54 PM
EDIT: comment removed because of mod censorship.