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Possible actions to be taken regarding weak Maths background


Ibn Abbas

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I had already described my situation somewhat in another thread, but there seems to be no response to that as yet. So I am hoping to attract the attention of some veterans in this new thread, like Econ, gstergia to help me get out of the mess I am in.

 

First of all, I am a a 4h-year student of a Bachelors Program in Business Administration, otherwise known as BBA. You may call it the younger brother of the much known MBA. Unfortunately, I lost interest in the field of business not long after joining the program and I dream about being an economist day and night. Having realized my mistake, I now plan to do my Masters in Economics and then try for a PhD. But the problems start here:

 

1) My BBA program included the following relevant courses that somewhat relates to Economics:

Mathematics for Decision-Making - some calculus related to differentiation, integration, limits, continuity, a little bit of algebra, mean value theorem etc all of which I have mostly forgotten since I took it in my first semester and its been more than 3 years since. Furthermore, I got a C+ because the teacher was not good.

Micro-economics - you know what this includes and I don't need to elaborate on this. I got an A.

Macro-economics - though my grade is not out as yet, I am more or less expecting an A.

Statistics 1 - covered descriptive statistics and probability and I got a B+

Statistics 2 - correlation, regression, hypothesis testing etc and B+

So you can see that my main weakness is in Maths. In fact, given the profile of some other people I have come across in the threads, my maths background is pathetic :wallbash:

 

2) The place that I am in, Institute of Business Administration (IBA), is the business school of University of Dhaka (Dhaka is the capital of Bangladesh, which is just beside India). Now, University of Dhaka is the best uni. in my country and people would kill to get into IBA. In fact, I had to compete with 3500 students for a place in a class of 70 (15 have dropped out after getting in). But the problem with the uni. is the extreme rigidity as I am simply not allowed to take any course outside my department. Thus, since IBA itself does not offer any maths course others than the one I just mentioned, I cannot take the necessary maths courses without which universities are unwilling to take me for the MSc Econ program.

 

3) Neither do we have Maths summer camps or something similar in our university or any other uni. in our country. I am basically stuck :mad:

 

So, the question is, what do I do? :(

 

I have some other questions which are not exactly related to maths but which are just as important but I hope to get some input from you guys on this first. So, please please help. Help me get out of my depression. :(

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is it so that they wont allow u to take courses that are not offered at your univ. and that are reqd for your personal matters? it shouldnt be as someone may want to change trade also and in that case its his/her personal choice whether to take extra courses or not! noone is going to spend their univ's money after all...till now i have heard the univs that are strict, only forbid the profs working there from private tutoring but there shouldnt be any bindings for students! its ridiculous...but if indeed its so then you should talk to the dean/authority of your inst to allow you for your specific reasons,they should be giving permission...if not then i must say they dont belong to planet earth!
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well nothing really surprising about university rigidity.i am from mumbai university(india) which actually gives us the entire syllabus for 4 years when we enroll..i encountered exactly the same problem.my undergrad degree is in computer sc. and engg. and my weak math background really hurt me when i applied to math depts.(my interests lie in discrete mathematics ,algorithms & theoretical computer science). the situation was EXACTLY the same as in Mishal's case..except that i wouldnt kill to go to MU(i wud def. have killed to get out of it if i had to)
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is it so that they wont allow u to take courses that are not offered at your univ. and that are reqd for your personal matters? it shouldnt be as someone may want to change trade also and in that case its his/her personal choice whether to take extra courses or not! noone is going to spend their univ's money after all...till now i have heard the univs that are strict, only forbid the profs working there from private tutoring but there shouldnt be any bindings for students! its ridiculous...but if indeed its so then you should talk to the dean/authority of your inst to allow you for your specific reasons,they should be giving permission...if not then i must say they dont belong to planet earth!

Well our courses are fixed and the schedule is fixed. For instance, I am bound to take Microeconomics in my 3rd semester and not in the 2nd or 4th semester. I am bound to take precisely 40 courses during my 4 years, not 39 or 41. Also, I am bound to take 5 courses per semester and not 4 or 3 or 2 (that makes it 5 x 8 semesters = 40 courses). I believe we do have a mathematics department but I don't think there are any means of taking any course outside my designated 40 at IBA. Neither do I think is there any facility in the Maths department which would allow a student from another department (like IBA) to come in and do extra courses. Yes, extremely rigid and it makes no sense, but hey, Bangladesh is a 3rd world country and I have to be happy with the fact that I even got the chance to study in the best university in my country. Further, the fees I pay is literally peanuts since the entire state education system is subsidized...so I have little scope for complain regarding 'better use of my money'.

 

So guys, please help me by suggesting some other alternative. :blush:

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well nothing really surprising about university rigidity.i am from mumbai university(india) which actually gives us the entire syllabus for 4 years when we enroll..i encountered exactly the same problem.my undergrad degree is in computer sc. and engg. and my weak math background really hurt me when i applied to math depts.(my interests lie in discrete mathematics ,algorithms & theoretical computer science). the situation was EXACTLY the same as in Mishal's case..except that i wouldnt kill to go to MU(i wud def. have killed to get out of it if i had to)

 

I agree that there may be rigid course schedule and number of courses to be taken but that doesnt mean that you cannot spend some time of your own outside your univ. for doing other courses..i know some people who did some mathematics courses while they were preparing for CAT...so what i cant understand is why a student isnt allowed to take extra courses outside the univ if not in math dept of the same univ...

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Well our courses are fixed and the schedule is fixed. For instance, I am bound to take Microeconomics in my 3rd semester and not in the 2nd or 4th semester. I am bound to take precisely 40 courses during my 4 years, not 39 or 41. Also, I am bound to take 5 courses per semester and not 4 or 3 or 2 (that makes it 5 x 8 semesters = 40 courses). I believe we do have a mathematics department but I don't think there are any means of taking any course outside my designated 40 at IBA. Neither do I think is there any facility in the Maths department which would allow a student from another department (like IBA) to come in and do extra courses. Yes, extremely rigid and it makes no sense, but hey, Bangladesh is a 3rd world country and I have to be happy with the fact that I even got the chance to study in the best university in my country. Further, the fees I pay is literally peanuts since the entire state education system is subsidized...so I have little scope for complain regarding 'better use of my money'.

 

So guys, please help me by suggesting some other alternative. :blush:

 

cant u try to take them at some other univ? or if there is any such private insts which employ profs on a part time basis to teach students, that could also be tried....many insts have summer school programs where formal application needed to be done..i dont know its there in bangladesh or not ...if its there u may apply to those insts...i dont think u need to learn from your univ only! or is there again any such rule that u cant even apply to other places /learn somewhere else....

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Thanks for you responses, guys (and gals, if any).

 

No, we don't have any restrictions over what we do outside our university of course. However, I don't think other universities provide such facilities for outsiders either though I will start searching. Also, I am going to talk to one of my professors who has lots of contacts and hopefully he can persuade someone from the maths department or some other place to give me (and some of my friends who are in a similar situation) some informal Maths training. Now, my question is, if I do manage to find someone like that and get some informal lessons, will that help? There is no accreditation for this and I will not be able to show any transcript for this to the universtities I will be applying to except that I can mention my efforts in my SOP. But will it really count to the adcomms.? My intention is to somehow persuade the adcomms. to take me in and then take as many maths courses as possible in that university. But the point is...I have to GET IN first. :rolleyes:

 

Now, venturing further onto the other issues of the admission process, here are some other problems that I am facing:

1) My father is a US citizen and I will tell him to petition for me, so that I can go over to the US after my final year of BBA finishes here in Dhaka. But the problem is that my classes will finish in February 2006 at the earliest and I may not be able to get the exemption from the 4 month internship program which follows after that. So, chances are that I won't be landing on US soil until July 2006. Note that I will be treated as an 'international' during the admission process (Nov 2005-April 2006) but if I do manage to get admission at some US university for Fall 2006, I will be starting classes as a 'legally permanent resident' or LPR. Now, my question is whether my 'international' status will harm me during my admission process or not. Or to look at it through rose-tinted glasses, will I mention in my SOP that I am going to be a LPR soon hoping that this will help me in me getting selected more easily?

Further, will universities be more or less reluctant to give aid to LPRs?

 

2) Having read quite a few threads, it seems that you people do not rate a MSc Econ at an a US Uni. very highly and would rather prefer some Euro uni. because the top 5 or 10 US PhD programs look suspiciously at US Msc Econ degrees. Now, correct me if I am wrong but isn't it true that US universities have more funds and also the willingness to give aid to students than their European counterparts? Also, living costs are much higher in UK (though I don't know much about Spain or Netherlands) than in US, not to mention that my father would find it much more convenient to help me out financially were I to do my degree in US rather than in Europe. So, doesn't all the above justify applying for US despite its suspect quality of MSc programs?

 

3) I have a CGPA of 3.32 uptil the 3rd year and I will be trying to pull it up to 3.4 probably. Out of a class of 55, I think there are around 15 students ahead of me with the class-toppers having a CGPA of around 3.75. With such a mediocre CGPA, what are my chances of getting into a top 21-50 US university or a top 11-20 UK University?

 

Sorry for the long post, but you guys are my only help. Please help :)

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I don't know a lot about the topic at hand, (I read it because I had a weak math background!!!) but I think that you will qualify for more aide as a LPR than as an international student. A lot of the grants/aide money is stipulated to go to US citizens or residents with permanent status... much more than is slated for international students. So this may help you.

 

The MS in Econ seems to be disregarded in the US in favor of a PhD. So, you might consider applying for PhD programs, though of course in Econ, they are quite competitive. You could always apply for a MS in the US and while getting the MS- after the first semester when your grades are in, see if you can not flip into the PhD program, difficult but not impossible

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Thanks JingleBells for the reply.

 

Applying to Ph.D programs won't really help because chances are I will be rejected outright by all universities given my pathetic background. Even entry to the Masters seems increasing unlikely. :(

 

I hope the others have some more information to share. :)

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I had already described my situation somewhat in another thread, but there seems to be no response to that as yet. So I am hoping to attract the attention of some veterans in this new thread, like Econ, gstergia to help me get out of the mess I am in.

 

First of all, I am a a 4h-year student of a Bachelors Program in Business Administration, otherwise known as BBA. You may call it the younger brother of the much known MBA. Unfortunately, I lost interest in the field of business not long after joining the program and I dream about being an economist day and night. Having realized my mistake, I now plan to do my Masters in Economics and then try for a PhD. But the problems start here:

 

1) My BBA program included the following relevant courses that somewhat relates to Economics:

Mathematics for Decision-Making - some calculus related to differentiation, integration, limits, continuity, a little bit of algebra, mean value theorem etc all of which I have mostly forgotten since I took it in my first semester and its been more than 3 years since. Furthermore, I got a C+ because the teacher was not good.

Micro-economics - you know what this includes and I don't need to elaborate on this. I got an A.

Macro-economics - though my grade is not out as yet, I am more or less expecting an A.

Statistics 1 - covered descriptive statistics and probability and I got a B+

Statistics 2 - correlation, regression, hypothesis testing etc and B+

So you can see that my main weakness is in Maths. In fact, given the profile of some other people I have come across in the threads, my maths background is pathetic :wallbash:

 

2) The place that I am in, Institute of Business Administration (IBA), is the business school of University of Dhaka (Dhaka is the capital of Bangladesh, which is just beside India). Now, University of Dhaka is the best uni. in my country and people would kill to get into IBA. In fact, I had to compete with 3500 students for a place in a class of 70 (15 have dropped out after getting in). But the problem with the uni. is the extreme rigidity as I am simply not allowed to take any course outside my department. Thus, since IBA itself does not offer any maths course others than the one I just mentioned, I cannot take the necessary maths courses without which universities are unwilling to take me for the MSc Econ program.

 

3) Neither do we have Maths summer camps or something similar in our university or any other uni. in our country. I am basically stuck :mad:

 

So, the question is, what do I do? :(

 

I have some other questions which are not exactly related to maths but which are just as important but I hope to get some input from you guys on this first. So, please please help. Help me get out of my depression. :(

 

Hi..maybe my experience can help you a bit with your own problems. I am from Chile where I graduated with a BBC or something resembling that (it is a 5-years degree). My prep in math was much like yours but I had kinda 7 courses in econ (micro and macro). As you, I didn;t like business so I decided to become an economist...I first applied to a couple of PhD programs to see how it was, but as you might expect the results were highly negative. So, I decided to go for a Master. I went to Canada, got my M.A., came back to Chile (I had to..it was a scholarship restriction) and now I am ready to go for my PhD. This year, my results regarding PhD applications were more than satisfactory. I applied to 10 schools (US & Canada), got into 9 with 8 offering me full financial aid. I might add I got the chance to stay right after finishing my MA, but as I told you I couldn;t because of scholarship restrictions. So, my message is: it might turn out to be longer, but if you really want to take full advantage of your graduate studies, I advise you to take the MA=>PhD route...you will fill all those 'holes' that weren't covered by your BBA and will define whether a PhD is really for you....hope this helps..

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Hey, why don't you try applying to an exchange program? It can help you out I wish.

And, as for me, I had to do compulsory military service for over two years during my undergrad life. I am a 26 year-old boy who graduated this year.............

 

Which military? Israeli? I don't know of any militaries besides Korea and Israel's that requires more than 2 years of compulsory service...

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Lacrimosa, look at the bright side, you kept your body fit as a result of the military service :D

 

Quas, thanks for your story but this is where I need help...

I went to Canada, got my M.A

First of all, which university did you go to in Canada? Second, didn't you have any problems entering the uni. since you did not have maths? And what were your grades in your undergraduate degree? Was it really good? It sure seems so...because you even got scholarship :)

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Quas, thanks for your story but this is where I need help...

 

First of all, which university did you go to in Canada? Second, didn't you have any problems entering the uni. since you did not have maths? And what were your grades in your undergraduate degree? Was it really good? It sure seems so...because you even got scholarship :)

 

I went to Concordia University, Montreal. It is not a top university but it is among the 8 good ones in Canada. I would have liked to go to UBC or Queen's or UoT, but I had other restrictions that I had to consider at that time. In what regards math, well...during my BBA, I took some advance courses in math but my own, i.e., I attended to math classes as a listener just in order to improve my undersrtanding. Anyway, I had to learn more math during my M.A. but it was not difficult considering I had good math backgrounds. The experience was great and I might say I was a lucky student because I had the chance to meet great prof from outside my own school. This gave me the chance to work with people from CIRANO and CIREQ which increases a lot my Research experience and allowed me to get two papers on my own, one of which was the result of my final M.A. research paper. I suppose when I applied to PhD programs, admcom liked this...apart, I did not have a bad profile: I graduate as the first in my undergrad class and also as the first student in my grad program and had relatively good GRE scores (780Q, 410V, 5,5 A) and TOEFL (287)...the good part is that I thought I would be attractive only for canadian schools but I did pretty well in the states also!!! got in all the schools I applied with full funding. Now I think that with a more reputed M.A. (say one from UoT, Queen's, UBC, UWO) I would have been able to get into top US schools...but, I am happy as I did good given the restrictions I faced....Hope this helps!!!!

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Hmm...you had two advantages that I don't: being first in your class and extra maths courses.

 

Well, let's hope for the best. I am trying to persuade a professor to give me some informal maths training. If I state that in my SOP, will that help at all? Anyone any ideas?

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Well, let's hope for the best. I am trying to persuade a professor to give me some informal maths training. If I state that in my SOP, will that help at all? Anyone any ideas?

 

It is always a good idea to receive extra math trainning. I am sure that this will help you in gaining admmision...just a doubt, do you consider going directly for a PhD or taking the longer M.A.=>PhD route? I ask you this because if you go for a M.A I am sure you;ll get the 'formal' trainning you're missing. After that, any PhD admcom will have no doubt about your real capablity...but. of course, you lose nothing trying with PhD applications....

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Are you nuts, Quas? :D I wouldn't dare apply for a Ph.D program now...

 

For me, the longer route of MSc=>PhD.Econ is a must. I am trying to get into a MSc Econ program but even the requirements for entry to a Masters program is too restrictive for me...Let me show you some examples:

 

UMich Ann Arbor

It is normally the case that MAE students have completed at least the following before beginning the graduate program: calculus (one year), intermediate microeconomic theory (one term), intermediate macroeconomic theory (one term), and elementary statistics (one term). The first program priority will be to correct any preliminary deficiency.

 

BostonU

Students applying for entry into the Masters Program are normally expected to have passed some advanced undergraduate preparation in economics that includes one year of intermediate macro and microeconomic analysis and courses in statistics, calculus, and linear algebra.

 

Duke

Therefore, while it is highly selective, there are few prerequisite restrictions – the only absolute requirement is that entering students should have had a full calculus sequence (either calculus II or calculus III, depending on their undergraduate institution’s structure), or demonstrate plans to take these courses prior to enrolling.

 

UWash Seattle

Applicants for graduate study in economics should have completed undergraduate training that includes courses in at least intermediate level microeconomic and macroeconomic theory. In addition, applicants must have had at least one year of calculus, one term of linear algebra, and one term of statistics. A course in differential equations is strongly recommended. Additional work in calculus, matrix algebra, and probability and statistics is also strongly recommended.

 

SUNY Stony Brook

The Committee looks favorably on training in multivariate calculus (at least 1 year of differential and integral calculus is required by the Department), linear algebra, real analysis and topology, introductory statistics and probability.

 

I can go on and on and on and it would get more and more depressing :(

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I think you should take what they say quite literally, with every way out they offer. If they allow you to make up for that during your Master's, perfect, it means they encourage you to apply. If they call it a prerequisite, and you haven't done it, then I wouldn't apply there if I were you. I was in a similar situation when I applied to PhD programs in history last year. I had only taken two undergrad history courses and had received low grades for both. I had taken one graduate history course, had received an excellent grade for that one and had written a good MA thesis on a historical topic. But, officially, no history degree (linguistics and American Studies instead), so I guess I was more or less in the same situation, and even with low grades. Anyhow, I decided to apply for History PhDs anyhow, and I got in in one of the 7 programs I applied to. I also need to mention that of those 7, 4 were top 5 and the most of the others were also relatively high-ranked. So, that wasn't a good idea. However, some universities stated in the prerequisites that they only occasionally allow students with a non-history background into the program, so, there I didn't apply. When they just said you needed a background in the humanities, I did. I think you should take a close look at these prerequisites as well, in order to stand a better chance of getting in. On top of that, don't aim too high, you can still aim high for your PhD afterwards. So, apply to a couple of high-ranked schools, but focus most of your applications on schools ranked 20 to 60 or so, depending on your GPA and GRE.

Anyhow, GOOD LUCK! I'm sure you'll get accepted in a good program if you apply wisely (=not like I did!)

:D

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On top of that, don't aim too high, you can still aim high for your PhD afterwards. So, apply to a couple of high-ranked schools, but focus most of your applications on schools ranked 20 to 60 or so, depending on your GPA and GRE.

 

Do agree with that. Although you can always add two 'dream' schools, it is wise to point your effort toward 'reachable' schools. After all, you will use your M.A. as a previous step for your PhD. So, calibrate your target schools: do not point tooooo high, but not toooooo low either! Get into a M.A. program, do your best (good grades, wise course selection, etc), get in touch with prof (which will ensure you good LOR's and maybe some research experience) and then go for top PhD programs. I am sure that you'll get not only accepted (in a PhD) but accepted with full funding. So, be smart when applying (I am sure you are smart ...but I am talking of a smart application strategy) and you'll be in for sure. After that, we will be hearing your glorious story :D

 

BTW Mishal, I am not mad...just checking that my beliefs were teh correct ones :whistle:

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After that, we will be hearing your glorious story :D

Aaah, I am starting to day-dream all over again :grad: :blush:

BTW Mishal, I am not mad...just checking that my beliefs were teh correct ones :whistle:

I was just kidding.

 

Anyway, what do you think of my tentative shortlist?

 

USA

13 Michigan Ann Arbor

17 NYU

18 Cornell

21 Boston University

22 Duke

26 Washington (Seattle)

28 Illinois (Urbana)

31 Texas (Austin)

35 Ohio State

39 SUNY Stony Brook

40 Southern Cal

44 Indiana

52 Rutgers

The number in front of each university name is the NRC rankings of Econ departments...though I have used other rankings including EconPHD rankings to come down to this list.

 

East Asia

IIUM - International Islamic University Malaysia

NUS - National University of Singapore

CityUHK -City University of Hong Kong

CUHK - Chinese UHK

HKUST - HKU Science and Tech

UHK - Univ. Hong Kong

 

Haven't decided yet upon whether I will apply to UK or other European unis. since chances of aid is near-zero. As for Canada, I am currently trying to contact a senior from my university who went to Carleton U and I am hoping he will be able to guide me.

 

So what do you think? Am I too ambitious? Should I add some unis from 50-80? :)

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East Asia

IIUM - International Islamic University Malaysia

NUS - National University of Singapore

CityUHK -City University of Hong Kong

CUHK - Chinese UHK

HKUST - HKU Science and Tech

UHK - Univ. Hong Kong

Hi, Mishal, if you want to take more maths courses, better choose a longer Master program coz the basic economics courses already take you most of the time. You may start your math preparation only in the 2nd year of the above east asian programs.

 

Since I am from HK, I may provide you some info. about the schools on your list.

 

CUHK - only offer 2-yr. Mphil program with decent scholarship. But it is not suitable for you because I never see there is a foreign students (i.e. other than mainland Chinese and HK students) in the program. Some Math courses are conducted in Cantonese! This policy may change in the near future.

 

HKUST - There is a 1-yr. M.Sc. program. They like admitting students from all other countries. This program has no funding but the cost is only about USD10K which includes tuition and housing. HKUST is known to most of the US universities. You can switch to Ph.D. (not automatic) after the M.Sc. Math Professors are mostly from top univerisites. All courses are taught in English. Actually, it does not offer M.Phil. program. There is only M.Sc. and Ph.D. In the recent years, they sent their students to Harvard, Chicago, Rochester, UCLA and Boston. Of coz, good grades in Econ and Math are important.

 

HKU - If you want to find a job after graduation, HKU may be the best choice due to its excellent network. But if you want to go for Ph.D., then it may not be that suitable given there is only a weak connection with the US universities. It is also a 1yr program. The cost and course structure are about the same as HKUST's but less rigorous.

 

CityU - It should be a 2yr M.Phil program with full funding. Its reputation is not as good as others. You can get a place in US only if you have a good Mphile dissertation and course grades.

 

Good luck for your school search!

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THANKS hoper!!! :)

I really didn't expect much information on that front (HK I mean...). Unfortunately, your post indicates ultimately that 3 out of 4 unis are unsuitable for me: CUHK because it usually doesnt take foreign students and some courses may not be in English, CityU because it is not as reputed as the others, and HKUST because it's a one-year program whereas you are suggesting that I should a take a longer program to take the maths courses.

 

But UHK seems okay though you say that links to US unis. are not that good.

 

More dilemma. :hmm: I think I need a holiday from all this :p

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US Master programs are, in general, not so good as they used to be. Though european programs are much more demanding than their US's counterpart, you are right when you say that chances to get financial aid are pretty low. So, Canada might be a very good option for you. Now, your shorlist seems pretty nice to me, however, I advise you to include some 'backup schools' just in order to increase your overall chances....try also to check at every university if there is a couple of prof whom you'd like to work with. This can have two nice effects: 1) you get research experience in the field you like helping you later in your PhD application; 2) helps you get good LOR's as these profs can give a broader picture about you (not only from a teaching but also from a research point of view)...
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So, Canada might be a very good option for you.

I have been looking into quite a number of universities in Canada for the last few days and it seems that I may be able to get into the 'qualifying year' or QY of some of the Masters programs there. But the fees and living costs of QY are vaguely written in the websites. Since you were at Concordia, could you give me some ideas about how much it would cost?

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