A Question about a particular business PhD area to apply to !!

[Ancalagon The Black]

Hi guys,

 

I need some advice from the board as I seem to be stuck on a particular issue. In my MS program, I am doing plenty of research with respect to human dynamics and online social networks in organizations. Moreover, I am also interested in this aspect with respect to collaboration, virtual teams and virtual organizational structures.

 

I would like to extend this study in business settings and this has got me looking towards business PhD programs where such research is taking place.

 

Does anybody know of particular schools or professors who seem to be doing such work? Moreover, what business area does this fall under: management, OB?

 

Also, what kind of quantitative skills should be expected for competitive admissions to such areas. (I know nothing of this area. I used to be an information systems guy !!)

[zshfryoh1]

Hi guys,

 

I need some advice from the board as I seem to be stuck on a particular issue. In my MS program, I am doing plenty of research with respect to human dynamics and online social networks in organizations. Moreover, I am also interested in this aspect with respect to collaboration, virtual teams and virtual organizational structures.

 

I would like to extend this study in business settings and this has got me looking towards business PhD programs where such research is taking place.

 

Does anybody know of particular schools or professors who seem to be doing such work? Moreover, what business area does this fall under: management, OB?

 

Also, what kind of quantitative skills should be expected for competitive admissions to such areas. (I know nothing of this area. I used to be an information systems guy !!)

 

I could see this kind of stuff being done by just about any B-school department, though Econ, OB, Strategy, Management and B-School MIS dpeartments would be more likely to have people doing this kind of stuff than other B-school departments (finance, stats, accounting). Aral in NYU Stern's IS department does some work in this field. I think both Bacarra and Lee in NYU Stern's econ department have done some related stuff, though not exactly what you describe. I also remembering seeing that a couple of people at Wharton and HBS were doing work in this field, though I don't remember who.

 

Since you have a background in IS, take a look at B-School MIS departments for people doing this kind of stuff.

[Ancalagon The Black]

Thank you friend. I shall do that.

 

Now suppose I did manage to find some really interesting field in say another branch than IS - say Management or OB. What kind of quantitative courses would i need to be a competitive applicant?

[oldprogrammer]

Multivariable calculus, linear algebra, and mathematical statistics seem to be the most typical requirements. The extra ambitious would add courses in real analysis, optimization, stochastic processes, and/or differential equations. But I'm not sure if those latter courses would have any effect on your admission chances given your stated interests.

 

Basically, I see two main concerns driving quantitative skills in Business PhD admissions:

• Being able to complete the Economics core
  
• Being able to do sophisticated statistical modeling
  

[zshfryoh1]

Like oldprogrammer mentioned, multivariable calculus, linear algebra, and a math stats or an econometrics course are necessary to be competitive at top schools. A calculus based probability course would also be useful. Beyond that, more math is always more useful, though how much the extra math matters would depend on the school. Some OB, management and strategy programs take a more quantitative approach. For those schools linear programming/optimization, game theory, real analysis, differential equations and stochastics would all help a lot. Some programs are more behavioral/psychology oriented and the extra math will not help as much.

[tkkoh]

Beyond b-school, you may want to consider human-computer interaction (HCI) programs.

[Ancalagon The Black]

I dont have real analysis or econometrics but I have all the other courses mentioned above and then some. Is that necessarily going to be a detriment?

[Ancalagon The Black]

tkkoh:

 

Yes, thanks so much for the tip. Actually, I was thinking of applying to a judicious mix of b-schools and i-schools where this kind of research also takes place.

 

Then there are some interdisciplinary programs like CMU's COS and NWU's TSB. HBS's STM also comes into mind but they take 1 student a year and so far all of them have been Princeton undergrads so no chance for people like me. :)

[shootermcgavin7]

Emory has an exceptional department - I know of at least one professor and one PhD student who are doing research specifically on social networks.

[doctoraldude]

Thing is, your interests are spread pretty wide, in terms of departments/schools ...

is it the interaction dynamics that interest you - or the socio-economic implications ? (i.e. the mechanism or the impact?)

[Ancalagon The Black]

shootermcgavin7: Thanks so much for the tip. I will look it up.

 

doctoraldude:

 

The mathematical, statistical and computational dynamics and their resultant impact on organizational settings. :P Maybe I am stretched far too thin here. However, there are 2 research projects where I am currently involved. We are shooting for a publication in Management Science (accepted with major revisions) for the first on online social networks and virtual teams in an IT organization and for the second, on urban dynamics and marketing networks we already have 1 publication in press in IEEE Systems, Man and Cybernetics. I am the first author for both.

 

My professors are all applied mathematicians/information scientists and they cannot advise me on business school applications so I was wondering whether it was a viable option or not. Thanks.

[bauble]

Within b-school, I think that the strongest overlap is with IS departments (the "online" part of your interest) and those with organizational theory leanings. On the latter, those might be organized within a management or perhaps strategy dept. Outside of b-school, there are some places with school of information departments (e.g., Berkeley, Michigan), and I think that some related work might be done there, though I am not intimately familiar with those departments.

[doctoraldude]

Yup, the closest overlap is in IS. But there's also some overlap with macro OB. CMU maybe a great place for your interests - they have strength in IS, plus there are faculty working on similar things in Tepper OB and Pitt-strategy.

 

Perhaps you could go about finding specific faculty who publish in those areas, and then check out where they are located ? (that's what i did anyway :) )

[Ancalagon The Black]

Thanks guys for the tips. This really helped.

[bizphd]

 

However, there are 2 research projects where I am currently involved. We are shooting for a publication in Management Science (accepted with major revisions) for the first on online social networks and virtual teams in an IT organization and for the second, on urban dynamics and marketing networks we already have 1 publication in press in IEEE Systems, Man and Cybernetics. I am the first author for both.

 

 

Are you saying that you were asked to revise-and-resubmit to Management Science (or is it that you are shooting for revise-and-resubmit) If it is the former, congratulations. I am sure that you realize that you are now a very very strong candidate for top b-schools.

[Ancalagon The Black]

The article has been accepted for publication with major revise and resubmit. I am co-authoring with 2 professors from ISI (although I am the first author as this is probably my MS thesis). Both are fellows of IEEE and have over 75 peer reviewed journal articles (mostly in ACM/IEEE Transactions). One of them is widely considered to be the guru in mathematical morphology in India if not elsewhere. The other works a lot in rough set theory. These are the applied math techniques which we used to analyze geometric variations in otherwise topologically invariant online social networks. The novelty is that this technique has never been used to analyze said networks and it gives really good results (as opposed to discerete event simulation and agent based modeling)

 

The trouble though is that I do not have some required math/econ courses like real analysis and econometrics (and have no additional way of taking them) although I am ranked first in class in my MS. I am not ranked in the top 5 in my undergraduate. Last time, I applied to some b schools and didn't get through to any. (although at that time I just had a 3 year bachelors degree) I did get an interview from Stern IS though but it didn't work out. :( Instead I got lucky at some computer science/information science programs.

 

In fact, I have another revise and resubmit in Management Science which is undergoing its 3rd revision for the last 1 year !! :( It is about the risk and uncertainty analysis of a heritage building restoration project. (also something not attempted before) This leads me to believe that journals seek novelty work which has not been attempted before. Maybe I am wrong. I am quite frustrated with all those revisions though. :(

[zshfryoh1]

The trouble though is that I do not have some required math/econ courses like real analysis and econometrics (and have no additional way of taking them) although I am ranked first in class in my MS. I am not ranked in the top 5 in my undergraduate.

 

Real analysis is plus at the top B-schools but is not a necessity and is more of a signal of your mathematical sophistication than a course you use frequently (outside a couple of areas of macroecon and statistical theory it is not really used at all). The research you worked on appears to be fairly mathematically sophisticated, so you should be fine on that front. For the stats prerequisite it does not specifically have to be econometrics. Any math stats course covering the basics of distributions, hypothesis testing and linear regression should be enough.

 

Not graduating at the top of your class in foreign country where the adcoms may not know so much about the school or your LOR writers definitely hurts you, but this hurdle can be and has been overcome in the past, especially by research experience/publications and strong LOR's, even if the adcoms don't know who your LOR writers are. Also, you are first in your class in your MS program, so that should make up for your undergraduate anyway.

[Ancalagon The Black]

zshfryoh1:

 

Thanks a lot for the clarification with respect to econometrics. I do have the necessary statistics background.

 

I am doing my MS at the Indian Statistical Institute. This is regarded as one of the best schools in India - especially with respect to the quantitative sciences. In the past we have placed exceedingly well in top schools in the US including B-schools.

 

The current research which I am doing basically uses concepts of mathematical morphology, fuzzy set theory, rough set theory and fractal geometry in quantitatively characterizing geometric variations in topologically invariant online social networks and in analyzing urban sprawls.

 

As of the first semester, I am ranked first. Hopefully, I can keep it up but competition from the cohort is exceedingly tough !! Thanks for the support.

[bizphd]

Congratulations. I'd suggest not to worry too much about what you cannot change. Most schools expect students to spend 1-2 years doing course work and they will probably judge that you are capable of doing the course work.

 

What will distinguish you are your paper submissions. As far as I know, revise-and-resubmit to Management Science is what PhD students shoot for when going to job market at the end of their PhD. If you already have that when applying to PhD, it should make you a very very strong candidate.

 

Of course, this does not gurantee admission at any top program. But top schools are looking *primarily* for research potential and if you apply to a decent set, I am sure that you will get into one of those programs.

 

If you are frustrated from revisions, imagine the frustration of rejection. An editor of a major journal told a personal story that when his first ever submission was rejected, he did not leave his home for two weeks. Consider yourself lucky that it was not rejected (of course, you put in hard work but many other very smart people also put in hard work in rejected papers).

 

You may want to check the work of Erik Brynjolfsson (MIT Sloan), Marshall Van Alstyne (Boston U), Sinan Aral (NYU Stern), and Wonseok Oh (McGill Desautels). BTW, Van Alstyne and Aral are Brynjolfsson's students. They are primarily econ-based IS researchers but have networks for recent research.

 

Best of luck with your applications and research career.

 

The article has been accepted for publication with major revise and resubmit. I am co-authoring with 2 professors from ISI (although I am the first author as this is probably my MS thesis). Both are fellows of IEEE and have over 75 peer reviewed journal articles (mostly in ACM/IEEE Transactions). One of them is widely considered to be the guru in mathematical morphology in India if not elsewhere. The other works a lot in rough set theory. These are the applied math techniques which we used to analyze geometric variations in otherwise topologically invariant online social networks. The novelty is that this technique has never been used to analyze said networks and it gives really good results (as opposed to discerete event simulation and agent based modeling)

 

The trouble though is that I do not have some required math/econ courses like real analysis and econometrics (and have no additional way of taking them) although I am ranked first in class in my MS. I am not ranked in the top 5 in my undergraduate. Last time, I applied to some b schools and didn't get through to any. (although at that time I just had a 3 year bachelors degree) I did get an interview from Stern IS though but it didn't work out. :( Instead I got lucky at some computer science/information science programs.

 

In fact, I have another revise and resubmit in Management Science which is undergoing its 3rd revision for the last 1 year !! :( It is about the risk and uncertainty analysis of a heritage building restoration project. (also something not attempted before) This leads me to believe that journals seek novelty work which has not been attempted before. Maybe I am wrong. I am quite frustrated with all those revisions though. :(

[Ancalagon The Black]

Thanks a ton for the moral support. I will look at the research papers of all these professors.

 

It feels really frustrating for all these revisions. My professors and I have sent our paper to even Jean Serra (inventor of mathematical morphology whom my professor collaborates with, and knows very well) and he agrees that our equations are theoretically sound. However, the journal reviewers are not satisfied, primarily with our writing style and structure. I don't know what will happen with this !!

 

Moreover, I have another concern. Apparently, IS research in b-schools is on the decline and the research has shifted to i-schools. At this juncture, many schools take only 1-2 students a year or have stopped taking students altogether. I am also taking a look at the i-schools and I do see that such schools have some good research in social network research. However, I did want to get a PhD from b-schools for the prospects of getting a research position in another b-school with the tangible and intangible benefits.

[doctoraldude]

top b-schools often recruit professors from disciplinary fields such as Sociology, Psychology, Economics - so you're not at a big disadvantage if you follow your interests to a univesity department rather than a b-school, imo ...

[bizphd]

Thanks a ton for the moral support. I will look at the research papers of all these professors.

 

It feels really frustrating for all these revisions. My professors and I have sent our paper to even Jean Serra (inventor of mathematical morphology whom my professor collaborates with, and knows very well) and he agrees that our equations are theoretically sound. However, the journal reviewers are not satisfied, primarily with our writing style and structure. I don't know what will happen with this !!

 

Moreover, I have another concern. Apparently, IS research in b-schools is on the decline and the research has shifted to i-schools. At this juncture, many schools take only 1-2 students a year or have stopped taking students altogether. I am also taking a look at the i-schools and I do see that such schools have some good research in social network research. However, I did want to get a PhD from b-schools for the prospects of getting a research position in another b-school with the tangible and intangible benefits.

 

You mentioned that your professors are ACM/IEEE fellows. Have they published in social science journals before? You might be better off talking to a former editor of Management Science (or someone who has published extensively in MS) rather than Jean Serra.

 

Having been trained as an engineer/computer scientist myself, I suspect that your professors are incensed that 'theoretically sound' work is being asked to be revised. But when in Rome ...

 

Personally, I did not worry too much about 'IS in decline'. I was even more specific in going after Econ of IS. You have to go after what you really want.

[Ancalagon The Black]

doctoraldude:

 

I was unaware of that. I thought that generally, b-school profs from the appropriate areas are recruited.

 

bizphd:

 

No, they have not published in social science journals before. Basically, they publish a lot in IEEE Transactions or ACM Transactions. Or, other journals in their area like IJRS/IJGIS/IJPRMI etc. Actually, I asked them whether we could publish in a management journal as I thought it might be good for admissions. But, now I see that I have to stay up nights to re-revise re-revised work !! :P

[moomber123]

regarding what core skills to have to be considered "competitive":

 

I wouldn't worry about those advanced math/stats things at all if you don't already have them. First of all, it's not like you can just take all those courses NOW and expect to change your profile in a year or two to improve your chances. Chances are if you don't already have those skills, you will need quite some time to really acquire those skills.

 

I think some answers so far that include a lot of "advanced" stuffs (real analysis, econ 'cores', etc) reflect an approach that is common among top schools but should be by no means "exclusive." Some places do approach management / OB type of research quite differently. (Think Harvard. They love case studies there. Will still require a heavy dose of serious econ/stat courses, but not going to kill you over doing proof like in econ department.) Some departments like to distinguish themselves with "qualitative" approach, which is not "mainstream" but is becoming increasingly "sexy" in the field. It's not something you get a simple straight answer for. Each department has its own unique view on it.

 

A simple survey of the top journals in the field (AMJ, AMR, Org Sci, MS, SMJ, MISQ, ISR, etc) would show you what I am talking about. Some articles look like it's straight out of advanced modeling (math/stat) textbook (MS most likely) while others are only English text and the only number is the page number (AMR sometimes has pure conceptual papers). So the answer to this issue is really "it depends" and your best bet is to go to each department and look at their requirement and their current research output.

[moomber123]

top b-schools often recruit professors from disciplinary fields such as Sociology, Psychology, Economics - so you're not at a big disadvantage if you follow your interests to a univesity department rather than a b-school, imo ...

 

While I generally agree with this observation that top b-schools often recruit professors from "parent" disciplines, those recruits do not represent a majority of the b-school faculty. And if you look at graduates from those disciplines, the majority of them do not go into b-schools. So yes, it is "possible," but is it a good "alternative" is not necessarily an easy thing to say. I would suggest that if you know EXACTLY what type of research you want to do, and the best department is in those "parent" discipline of business admin, then go ahead. But if you don't really know what your research interests are, and your preferences on approach and methods, going to those departments is likely to sway you away from business school career.

 

Take strategy for example. True, most strategy researchers would like to consider themselves as economists (and some sociologists) but the vast majority of them do not come from econ or sociology departments. And those who do cross the boundary from and migrate from econ/sociology did not make their transition "without efforts." In fact, many would emphasize that even those strategy draws on those disciplines almost exclusively, strategy is NOT "applied econ" or "applied sociology." So I would not recommend those departments without some very heavy qualification of the statement.

 

However, I do believe that if your interests lead you away from a career in business school, then so be it. Other than the obvious huge difference in salary, I think honest academic research career should be guided by your passion and interests. So setting a constraint on b-school career might not be the wise thing to do.