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Thoughts on transferring PhD programs?


instajar

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With application results coming in, what do people think is best to do if you get into a safety school, but not one of your top choices? Does it make sense to attend the safety, but re-apply to the top choice in future years? Or is that too much a risk of burning bridges because you will need to ask for LORs from the people at the safety school?
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Usually that happens due to unforeseen circumstance, like you didn't have the level of support you expected from the school, or your advisor moved. I don't think attending a lower rank program with the goal of moving up is a good strategy, and could be frown upon. You can instead apply to some pre-doc programs (if you are a domestic student), or work as a full-time RA for a year. Your options are a bit more limited if you are an international student, but RA opportunities are still available in non-US schools.
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I was previously thinking about this question. But it does mean that you get into at least one funded PhD program!

 

I am currently in the process of waiting for the only interview left for me which I initially considered as my "safety" school coz I only truly like that one (that only one) professor's research at the school. (the school that my advisor didn't even consider that I would apply. and I'm sorry that I might have disappointed my advisor.)

I applied to some social science master programs this app season but those programs do not give early notice and I'll have to wait until April to know the results. (keep my fingers crossed)

 

Don't lose hope, mate! everything is possible (coz you haven't received confirmed rejections)!

Edited by tad2020
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I know of a handful of people who have transferred programs. In every case but one (following their advisor to a new school), they had to completely start over again. Honestly, I think you might be better off further developing your pipeline/improving test scores and applying again next year if you are not happy with the program that accepted you. The first couple of years of the PhD program are HARD and I couldn't imagine willingly subjecting myself to that again just to go to a higher ranked program unless there were some extenuating circumstances (losing funding or being asked to leave the first program).

 

I echo phd2020's advice of looking into predoc programs as well. That was my plan if I didn't gain admission into a PhD program the first round. Also, many disciplines offer pre-doc symposiums at their conferences so you may want to look into those to better develop your network.

 

The reality is that pretty much any R1 PhD program is going to be a "reach" judging by conventional metrics like acceptance rates. While test scores can get you through the initial rounds, there only needs to be 2 or 3 applicants with a better profile to knock you down to the waitlist in many cases. The process itself is also a bit more arbitrary. You can have a great profile but if your research interests only overlap with one or two professors who don't want to take on new students then there's a good chance that you may not get an offer. You should count any acceptance as a win!

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Thanks for the useful input, everyone. Are there any links for these predoc programs? I'm not really finding them on Google except for one at NYU, which seems quite competitive.

I think you can Google "pre-doctoral fellowship" to find those. NYU is one of the first ones, but there are many others. For example:

Ross: Bridges Program | Michigan Ross.

WashU: Pre-Doctoral Research Fellows | WashU Olin Business School

INSEAD: Pre-Doctoral Research Associate position (Strategy) | INSEAD (usually listed as a job, find one that you see fit)

Columbia: Predoctoral Fellows Program | Programs

Stanford: Research Fellows Program | Stanford Graduate School of Business

NBER: https://www.nber.org/jobs/employment_opp.html (for Econ, which I think would be a fit for strategy as well)

NBER also has a listing of RA/Pre-doc jobs not at NBER: https://www.nber.org/jobs/nonnberjobs.html

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I think you can Google "pre-doctoral fellowship" to find those. NYU is one of the first ones, but there are many others. For example:

Ross: Bridges Program | Michigan Ross.

WashU: Pre-Doctoral Research Fellows | WashU Olin Business School

INSEAD: Pre-Doctoral Research Associate position (Strategy) | INSEAD (usually listed as a job, find one that you see fit)

Columbia: Predoctoral Fellows Program | Programs

Stanford: Research Fellows Program | Stanford Graduate School of Business

NBER: https://www.nber.org/jobs/employment_opp.html (for Econ, which I think would be a fit for strategy as well)

NBER also has a listing of RA/Pre-doc jobs not at NBER: https://www.nber.org/jobs/nonnberjobs.html

Oh that's really interesting. I wish I had known about these earlier, since I think most of the deadlines have already passed. Thank you!

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Oh that's really interesting. I wish I had known about these earlier, since I think most of the deadlines have already passed. Thank you!

Most of those have deadlines around March 1 to March 30, so you can still definitely apply. That's the usual deadline for pre-doc. The only one on the list I couldn't find a deadline is WashU, but I think they are still accepting applications. Look out for Harvard's "research associate" listings around the end of February or early March as well.

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Most of those have deadlines around March 1 to March 30, so you can still definitely apply. That's the usual deadline for pre-doc. The only one on the list I couldn't find a deadline is WashU, but I think they are still accepting applications. Look out for Harvard's "research associate" listings around the end of February or early March as well.

 

It looks like NYU's was due Dec 31st, the same time as PhD applications. I also couldn't find a deadline for WashU.

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I agree with BCB. You gotta be pretty masochist to start a PhD, and then start everything all over again.

 

And, as we often say here, we should only apply to schools that we would be happy with, safety or not (assuming there is such a thing as a safety school for PhDs). It doesn't make sense to start a PhD already unhappy or thinking about leaving the program.

 

If you don't want to do a PhD at some school, please don't take that opportunity from someone else, don't make the school invest a lot of money on you, don't waste the time and effort of professors, etc. Of course there is the risk of burning bridges if you do something like that.

 

About doing a predoc or something like that, first you gotta think about why the top schools didn't accept you, and if doing a predoc would fix that issue for you. Otherwise, it can be the right solution for the wrong problem.

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It looks like NYU's was due Dec 31st, the same time as PhD applications. I also couldn't find a deadline for WashU.

Yeah that's why I didn't include NYU in the list. Regarding Brazilian's point, if the loss of potential income is not a problem, I think doing a pre-doc can only increase your chance of getting admission from the top schools. It would be a good chance to have refine your research interests as well, especially if you don't have much research experience.

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I'm not saying that it does not increase your chance. But whether that increase is from 0% to 1%, or from 2% to 10%, for example, should matter, and should depend on what is preventing the applicant from getting into the top schools targeted.

 

If the problem is just that the research interests are not refined enough (then harming research fit), as you mentioned, doing a predoc just for that seems like overkill to me.

 

If the problem is not having much research experience, I agree that a predoc can help. But first it's better to know if the problem is lack of research experience. Understanding the problem is important to get the solution.

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I'm not saying that it does not increase your chance. But whether that increase is from 0% to 1%, or from 2% to 10%, for example, should matter, and should depend on what is preventing the applicant from getting into the top schools targeted.

 

If the problem is just that the research interests are not refined enough (then harming research fit), as you mentioned, doing a predoc just for that seems like overkill to me.

 

If the problem is not having much research experience, I agree that a predoc can help. But first it's better to know if the problem is lack of research experience. Understanding the problem is important to get the solution.

 

I would be happy going to the lower ranked school. That's why I applied. I just think I might be even happier at the higher ranked school, and I think getting the Master's at the first school could improve my chances.

 

To be honest, looking at the pre-docs, I'm worried I won't get in, and I might not hear back from them in time for the April 15th decision deadline. And I think it's rare for an applicant to know exactly what they're lacking. But surely a Master's (or a pre-doc) can help with the main things like research experience and letters of recommendation. If one has a low GRE score or something quantifiable, then that should be the focus.

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I just think I might be even happier at the higher ranked school

 

Well, that's true for the vast majority of us. It's pretty rare to get an offer from our # 1 choice, usually we have to settle for less. And still we don't think about reapplying in the future because of that.

 

And I think it's rare for an applicant to know exactly what they're lacking. But surely a Master's (or a pre-doc) can help with the main things like research experience and letters of recommendation.

 

Yeah, we never know exactly. And even if we don't lack anything, that doesn't mean we will get an offer.

 

Yeah, predoc will probably help IF what you're lacking research experience and letters of recommendation. But IF you already have strong research experience and letters of recommendation, then it doesn't make much sense. Again, the solution depends on the problem.

 

Although we don't know exactly what we are lacking, asking around can give us a pretty good idea. I was very aware of my strengths and weaknesses when I applied.

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Well, that's true for the vast majority of us. It's pretty rare to get an offer from our # 1 choice, usually we have to settle for less. And still we don't think about reapplying in the future because of that.

 

I don't really see what people currently do as a good argument for what I should do. If others might strengthen their applications from transferring, I'd encourage them to do so. If this started to cause a systemic issue of too many students transferring, then I think the field as a whole would need to reevaluate their admissions procedures to correct for that.

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I am going to add something that I have not seen anyone mention yet.

 

Business PhD programs, depending on rank and field typically matriculate only 2-6 students per year in any given field (and sometimes as few as 1) as opposed to programs housed in Schools of Arts and Sciences which often matriculate 20+. A lot more effort is put into both the admissions process and advising students once they are in the program. Even one student transferring can mess up a program for an entire year. Transferring because you are following an advisor who is moving is considered perfectly fine, and transferring because you found the program to be a poor fit for you, as long as the feeling is mutual is OK. Otherwise you risk angering or annoying the faculty at your current school. Academia in business fields is much smaller than in social sciences or humanities, and networks are much more interconnected. Ticking someone off early in your career is not how you want to start your life in academia.

 

I personally know someone who withdrew from a top 20 finance program late in the summer right before their first year, a few years later got into a top 5 program, and eventually got tenure at a top 50 school, yet the individual still faces professional ramifications of their late withdrawal from the top 20 program over 30 years ago. I can't give any further details, but I heard the story directly from the individual in question as warning for young academics at the beginning of their career.

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