Profile eval - upcoming cycle (Canadian undergrad)

[Elliephant]

Applying in fall 2010 for fall 2011 matriculation. The usual deal... your thoughts are appreciated.

 

Type of Undergrad: business

Undergrad GPA: 3.9/4.0; econ GPA 4.0

Type of Grad: none

Grad GPA: N/A

GRE/TOEFL: Q760 V730 A6.0 a year ago; will retake and can definitely score Q800

 

Math Courses: calc I and II (A, A), stats (A+), algebra I (A+), algebra II (in progress), calc III (multivariate - next fall), real analysis I (next fall)

Econ Courses (UG): intro micro, intro macro, international econ, advanced micro (taken without intermediate) are all A+; did a term in China's top econ department: trade (90), information econ (91), Chinese development (93), urban and regional econ (98); currently doing advanced macro, metrics, and supply-side macro; next year will do applied metrics (forecasting) and managerial econ

Grad courses: just some MBA stuff

Other Courses: lots of business/finance type stuff plus a couple of languages, all A or higher

 

Letters of Recommendation: micro prof (reasonably well-known in IO and a past department chair, but cannot say much about me except "excellent student, came into my Varian-based course without intermediate micro or calc and still scored 100%"); research supervisor in Beijing (used to be tenured at UNC, had Michael Grossman as thesis advisor, knows me quite well); and one more not sure about yet

Research Experience: summer fellow at an econ research institute in Beijing, briefly RA at my home school, two conference presentations of my own independent papers (one of them is the Canadian Association of Economics annual meeting)

Teaching Experience: none; possibly will grade/TA introductory micro in the fall

Research Interests: health, education, some development, lots of micro stuff

Statement of Purpose: not done yet but should be reasonably good

 

Other: my uni absolutely stinks for economics but the business school is top 30 worldwide and one of the most competitive undergrads in Canada. OTOH as far as I know I am the only undergrad from our econ department ever to have a paper accepted for conference presentation.

Concerns: credibility of LORs; insufficient math background; shaky research background

 

Applying to: Canadian MAs (Toronto, UBC, Queen's) and some top 20 PhDs (a few econ departments and a few health policy departments; including the top 10), but will do an MA if no good offers and try again in 2011

 

Very many thanks in advance!

[Guest _nanashi]

I will be extremely surprised if at least one of the Canadian M.A's will not take you. I'd guess the only reason they wouldn't take you is they assumed you'll get offers elsewhere. If you were at UBC and had that kind of averages, with the right letters you'd probably have a reasonable shot at a top 10 (assuming you applied to all of them), despite not having R.A. I think a top 20 will take you, but it really depends if you can get good letters from the right people.

[Guest buzios]

You have all the standard math courses and good grades.

I imagine admission to top 20 schools will largely depend on the quality of your LORs, also conditional upon the your new GRE score and the grades you get in analysis and to a lesser extent multivariable calc(i think)

I agree with Nanashi in that you seem to a perfect candidate for masters programs though, so I wouldn't worry about that.

[Elliephant]

Thanks Nanashi, art. I'm not too worried about the MAs as I have seen people with less consistent profiles get admitted. Ideally, though, I'd like to skip the MA altogether and head directly for the PhD, which is looking pretty questionable.

[discreetcharm]

You look great. Do well in RA and you have a shot at top 20s. U of T and UBC is looking better these days.

[Guest _nanashi]

Thanks Nanashi, art. I'm not too worried about the MAs as I have seen people with less consistent profiles get admitted. Ideally, though, I'd like to skip the MA altogether and head directly for the PhD, which is looking pretty questionable.

With your GRE, and a 100 in Micro, I think you have a pretty good shot. From what I've just observed having 100s or really anything well above 90 from top tier Canadian schools would be taken seriously. If your school is one of the top Business schools in Canada, its likely to have a tier 2 econ PhD program, and most of those have researchers that have one or two respectable publications. (Really the academic world is smaller than you think, decent active professors usually have one or two contacts everywhere).

[Elliephant]

If your school is one of the top Business schools in Canada, its likely to have a tier 2 econ PhD program, and most of those have researchers that have one or two respectable publications.

Unfortunately that couldn't be further from the truth. Our econ department barely breaks top 15 in Canada, and is way past 150 globally. It's been looking up in recent years - new hires have come increasingly out of good places like Princeton etc. - but is still very, very far from stellar. The b-school is taken very seriously but even its econ faculty are so-so at best. I was told by one of them to turn my econometric research project into "more of a qualitative, institutional assessment, which is the kind of work I normally do".

 

If things work out I will have one LOR from one of those fresh Princeton PhDs, but quite frankly I don't have a lot of time left to make a good impression. Should have transferred out to econ/math after first year :rolleyes:

[Guest _nanashi]

Are you in McGill by any chance?

[Elliephant]

Are you in McGill by any chance?

Nope, elsewhere.

[BJE]

Haha.. I'm trying to guess the program as well. Why is it that everyone leaves out the name of the schools they are at? To maintain anonymity? I'm easily identifiable in my department, I think.

[BJE]

My guess is U of A. Top 5 MBA, ... and in the teens for econ.

[Elliephant]

I thought it was against forum rules to identify oneself by school...? But I guess it can't be, since so many do so. Not at Alberta though.

[Guest _nanashi]

Well if its either York, U of A, or Mcgill, I'd call all of those tier two. If it is Mcgill by ancy chance, they in particular places PhD better than most top 100s from what I've seen. Then they have the best name of any school outside of Canada, so I'd be more optimistic. They seem to be pretty focused on Development economics, which may have something to do with their ranking. At any rate, I'm sure you'll get into an M.A., but I think you have a solid shot at a PhD program.

[Elliephant]

I think you have a solid shot at a PhD program.

Thanks for your informative thoughts re: McGill. I am thinking of applying to the tier 1 schools. (Read: MIT, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Berkeley, Columbia, Penn.) If I don't get in right away it's not the end of the world, I'll just take a year to do an MA and get better prepared.

 

But I am wondering whether I should bother applying to the likes of top 10 this fall at all? Utter waste of time or a realistic shot?

[Guest buzios]

I think very few people have "realistic" shots at schools like that. But most people still go ahead and apply.

 

It's somewhat random, and it varies greatly. So it's still worth it if you take into consideration that you have even a small chance for admission.

Especially given that potential payoff would justify the marginal cost of each application.

 

If the cost of applying is an issue though, I'd just apply to the programs that you feel are a good fit for you, and then hope for the best.

[Elliephant]

I think very few people have "realistic" shots at schools like that. But most people still go ahead and apply.

Okay, fair enough. Guess I should start compiling deadline charts.

 

Going to bump this up in the hope of getting more feedback - chisquared seems to have gotten quite a bit of mileage in recent days ;)

Edited April 10, 2010 by Elliephant

[Elliephant]

Really hoping for some more input on this - please comment, even if only to agree/disagree with previous posters!

[RaaR]

I also did my undergrad at a school with an extremely bad econ department, yet a very good business school (though it's not the one you're at, as you have a 4.0 GPA system and at my alma mater it was on a 4.3 scale), continued on to do an MA in econ (at Queen's), and now doing a phd.

 

Here's my impression: not doing the BA at one of the top departments pretty much excludes you from the top schools without doing an MA. The process is random, so I don't say there's no chance, but if anything chances are very slim even if you're very good. Put simply, top programs hardly take chances on students from weak econ departments (referring to Canadian students only). I'm talking from my own experience, as well as from others'. I finished first in my class in undergrad (summa, etc.), yet the top programs decided to go for other Canadian students (undergrads/grads) with similar credentials but from the top programs. This kind of sucks for students who went to a school with a bad econ department (since who thinks about it when he/she goes to undergrad), yet I perfectly understand why it all works this way, and why they tend to pick students from UBC/Queen's/UoT,etc specifically.

 

Moral of the story: continue to be stellar at your undergrad, take lots of math (even get a math minor/major), and then go to one of the top departments for MA (though I'd recommend Queen's specifically). There are many advantages for taking that route even if you end up getting an offer at a good department right when you finish your undergrad.

[Elliephant]

Thanks RaaR, that's very helpful.

 

I finished first in my class in undergrad (summa, etc.), yet the top programs decided to go for other Canadian students (undergrads/grads) with similar credentials but from the top programs.

When you say "similar credentials", are you including things like research experience etc.? Obviously being first in class is unlikely to get you into the top 10 unless it's from a well-known school, but I wonder if it can get you there if you combine it with some RAing? What's your experience been with that?

 

Also, why do you say Queen's? I had my sights set on UBC in case PhD doesn't work out right away.

[mastersbound]

I agree with RaaR. The economics department at my undergrad was similarly poor in rankings, however I believe the honors economics program was fairly rigorous. Most people in the honors program do a masters before proceeding to do a phd. However, last year there was one student in the combined honors economics and math program who was accepted to Princeton straight out of undergrad. But I think this is more of an exception than a rule, and his preparation and grades were stellar.

 

Overall, I think it is possible to gain entry to a top ten from a weaker econ department, but you need to be beyond exceptional.

[Guest _nanashi]

Accidental double post. Edited April 12, 2010 by _nanashi

[Guest _nanashi]

I also agree if you do an M.A Queens should be your top choice, after that Toronto Doctoral, followed by UBC as last place. The major reason is Queens students tend to place more frequently into to PhD programs, and Queens PhD students tend to get better jobs coming out, and according to Queens B.A student, Queens M.A has a very good career placement department if you plan not to do a PhD.

 

 

Also, why do you say Queen's? I had my sights set on UBC in case PhD doesn't work out right away.

Knowing what I know about UBC, I don't think their faculty is committed to their students in general. In order to get good letters from UBC to get into top 10 programs you would need to probably need to be at the top of your class. Faculty are generally willing to write solid letters for honours kids going to top 15-30 schools if they have solid A's, but unwilling to write to top 10 unless they are A+ (one of my friends had his transcript evaluated line by line). I'd assume that in the masters, which grades are generally more inflated, you'd be held to an even higher standard.

[Elliephant]

The major reason is Queens students tend to place more frequently into to PhD programs, and Queens PhD students tend to get better jobs coming out, and according to Queens B.A student, Queens M.A has a very good career placement department if you plan not to do a PhD.

It seems to me that this point, along with your observation about faculty's willingness to write solid LORs, might be a result of the fact that the Queen's MA takes longer and gives you the option of doing more research. By the time students apply out of it, they have more MA grades on their transcripts and more time to get to know and impress professors. Maybe it's a function of time spent in grad school more than the school itself - that is, if one were to do an extra six months at UBC one might get comparable results. I agree that a Queen's degree is better domestically than UBC or Toronto, but I don't think that holds outside of Canada, and I would like to keep doors open for now. Thoughts?

[Guest _nanashi]

I agree that a Queen's degree is better domestically than UBC or Toronto, but I don't think that holds outside of Canada, and I would like to keep doors open for now. Thoughts?

With respect to economics, or in general? Well I'm american, and I did my B.A in Canada (I paid international tuition). There isn't really any Canadian school thats that well known in america (But hell most American's can't actually name the Ivy League). In general, the only schools known outside of Canada is Mcgill, followed by Utoronto, and lastly UBC. Mcgill has a far more lasting and older reputation than either of the other two institutions. UBC is generally seen as a rising star, and is not as well known as either of the two. UBC is particularly well known in Asia, and I know most of my Asian friends coming out of B.A managed to find some damn good jobs if they were on top of things and tried (Investment banking, Finance, Consulting). I know many people in the sauder business school, which is lower ranked then econ dept, managed to find employment in Boston, NY if they were on top of things.

 

As for with respect to economics, I think queens degree is better outside of Canada. Their department in terms of ranking and faculty is lower than Toronto's or UBC's, which are the only two schools in the top 30s in Canada, however they routinely place better than UBC or Toronto. I think again this is more to do with commitment of the faculty than anything else. Being inside a program, commitment of the department does have a lot to do with students success. As awkward as this may sound, academia still has a lot of its about who you know. Most UBC faculty I think are pretty detatched from their students. Nice people, but literally engrossed in their research to care about anything else. The school has a lot to offer, but mostly its resources and

diversity. Then the fact it is the prettiest campus in Canada, with the most tolerable weather (no harshwinter, but still near good skiing if thats what floats your boat).

[Elliephant]

UBC is generally seen as a rising star, and is not as well known as either of the two. UBC is particularly well known in Asia, and I know most of my Asian friends coming out of B.A managed to find some damn good jobs if they were on top of things and tried (Investment banking, Finance, Consulting).

I was under the impression that UBC outranks any other Canadian department in terms of research, particularly on the highly quantitative end of things. It's certainly got an incredibly good (perhaps not entirely deserved) reputation in Asia as a school, but I thought its econ department is just generally well recognised? In any case I've never heard it placed below both Queen's and Toronto. I guess I need to do more research. Do you have any links to stats for Queen's MAs moving on to PhDs?