I need a Plan-B

[interview]

Even before I begin the PhD Econ process, I need a plan-B if I don't get accepted into a PhD Econ program.

 

- I know I want to go into academia for sure.

- I know I don't want to do a PhD in Accounting or Marketing or Management.

- If I don't get into PhD Economics, I probably won't be accepted by a PhD Finance program, otherwise a PhD Finance would be my next choice.

- I want a PhD in a field where the ratio of open faculty positions to applicants is favorable.

 

What would you suggest to me - if I don't get into a PhD Econ program, what PhD should I shoot for?

 

Thank you guys!

[Walras]

I really don't understand why you are so sure you love Academia to the degree that you'd take any type of PhD. Generally people don't like academia. They like economics, or they like Finance, or they like Computer Science. Because they like the subject and are stimulated by the unanswered questions in that field they want to go into academia. I seriously doubt you can get enough motivation to finish a PhD if you're just doing it because its an easy field to get a job in.

 

Also, be sure to separate out a love of teaching at the university level from a love of academia. You can teach with a MA at the community college level, and you'll be very competitive for jobs if you have even a bottom of the barrel of rankings econ PhD. Most people on TM are not interested in that because they passionately love economics and researching economics, more than teaching, so they want to be around other active researchers. Because of that I'd honestly be happier doing an Econ MA and teaching at the community college econ classes while doing barely passable regressions on stata then being in a full university researching microbiology or some other random subject.

 

Instead, if you're genuinely interested in economics but are worried about the your inability to finish a econ PhD because of the math my suggestion is you can often tackle non-theoretical econ PhD questions from related fields (i.e. agricultural economics (still a lot of real analysis but there won't be as much dynamic programming without macro), or Public Policy). If you doubt you're competitive for econ PhD programs then I'd suggest you wouldn't be competitive in any other field either. Take classes for a few years and try to get better letters instead.

[ryanmagic]

I would say, try UC Davis ARE M.S. program.

I saw many people lose there passion to do PhD when they are in M.S. level class.

It's only a one-year program, won't cost too much time. And if you doing really well, you will be promoted to the ARE PhD program.

If you don't do well, you can find a job with a M.S.. Go to industry or as Walras said, M.S. is enough for college teaching job.

[ededo]

How about Phd/MPhil programs in Europe? Some of the Europe programs have late deadlines. I remember the deadline for Econ PhD program at U Toulouse I (Sciences Sociales) is April 30th, for example. You can either do PhD there, or do masters and apply for PhD later.

[interview]

I would say, try UC Davis ARE M.S. program.

I saw many people lose there passion to do PhD when they are in M.S. level class.

It's only a one-year program, won't cost too much time. And if you doing really well, you will be promoted to the ARE PhD program.

If you don't do well, you can find a job with a M.S.. Go to industry or as Walras said, M.S. is enough for college teaching job.

 

What is ARE?

[Optimizer]

Agriculture/resource economics

[interview]

Generally people don't like academia.

 

I am surprised people don't like academia. I love academia. I am not *that* tied to Economics because I know it is research that will make me happy. I can see myself being happy in an Econ department or even in a Physics department, in a Finance department or even in a Math department, etc. etc.

 

I doubt my ability to get into a PhD Econ program because I have a GED instead of a high school and I will be graduating with a degree from a local community college where I can attend free although I will have taken advanced Math and Econ classes at a good university through their outreach program. However, will a PhD Econ program take someone with a BS degree from NoName Community College? (And yeah, many community colleges offer BS degrees these days).

[interview]

M.S. is enough for college teaching job.

 

I like research, not teaching.

[interview]

How about Phd/MPhil programs in Europe? Some of the Europe programs have late deadlines. I remember the deadline for Econ PhD program at U Toulouse I (Sciences Sociales) is April 30th, for example. You can either do PhD there, or do masters and apply for PhD later.

 

Thanks - I am not applying this cycle though. After reading through a post by Mankiw, I still need to take classes like

Calculus

Linear Algebra

Multivariable Calculus

Real Analysis

Probability Theory

Mathematical Statistics

Game Theory

Differential Equations

Most of these classes are not offered at my community college, so I am taking them through the outreach program of a good university.

[Popolo2]

There are several "applied economics" programs, like the one at Minnesota. In addition to ARE, you could choose to specialize in health, labor, or development economics. A few other schools have similar "applied" tracks that could lead to a career in academia.

 

Of course, another option would be first doing a master's degree then applying. For someone coming from a CC, that might be the best bet, if you are willing to spend the time and money.

[Optimizer]

"However, will a PhD Econ program take someone with a BS degree from NoName Community College? (And yeah, many community colleges offer BS degrees these days)." - absolutely yes, i know some people who came from noname colleges and went to top 20 econ PhD programs...

[OneArmedEcon]

 

Thanks - I am not applying this cycle though. After reading through a post by Mankiw, I still need to take classes like

Calculus

Linear Algebra

Multivariable Calculus

Real Analysis

Probability Theory

Mathematical Statistics

Game Theory

Differential Equations

Most of these classes are not offered at my community college, so I am taking them through the outreach program of a good university.

 

 

So you've never even taken Calculus but you're considering a PhD Econ or Finance?

 

What are your research interests?

[tab]

Hey Interview,

 

So it sounds to me like you want to be in an environment where you can solve complex problems, stuff that hasn't been solved yet (not working off of some template) but like to have your own space to work on them. I transfered out of a community college so my experience there might be different but I'd like to make a suggestion or two.

 

Like others have said, perhaps you should try for an MA/Msc in economics. From there, there are quite a few interesting professional positions that involve heavy research. Many think tanks like the IMF, Rand, World Bank, etc are very willing to take on those with economic masters degrees and place them into a research assistant position where you could continue conducting research. I think it might be a good first step or even plan-b because you can, with some degree of simplicity, jump back into an economics phd program afterwords. I don't mean to slight anyone on this forum but sometimes when reading people's responses you will get answers like "top 20 or bust" or "if you don't love economics, you will drop out". Everyone has their own reason for pursuing a PhD and I think that, while your signal is a bit fuzzy, I understand what you want out of your career/post collegiate experience and an econ PhD WILL get you there. The thing is, the ground path to a phd is lined with landmines and it sounds like you have your eyes toward the skies at the moment.

 

With that said, yes you do need more classes. Without even having taking the Calc series and a semester or two of real prob/stats you can kiss all economic research dreams goodbye but it looks as though you understand this and believe you can complete the requirements in time. I say you should go for your plan-a with everything you have and if your goals change then they change but you will have prepared yourself for those landmines much more thoroughly.

[mindlessme]

I think it is fair to say that almost all people who really want an Econ PhD will eventually get in some program. The question is in how highly ranked that program would be. So your "plan B" might be just aim at lower tier Econ programs rather than switching a field altogether.

Of course, the lower ranked a program is, the worse are your prospects to get academic placement after it, other things equal. However, research jobs outside of universities (such as think tanks) will still be a viable option.

However, as I understand, that might be a little different for PhD Finance - there is a common opinion that PhD Finance graduates are scarse and in high demand, so that even people from lower ranked programs can get a satisfactory research job. Try to discuss this on the PhD Business forum, people there might shed more light on this.

 

But you definitely need to take Calculus and Linear Algebra before starting any Econ or Finance PhD...

[Walras]

So your "plan B" might be just aim at lower tier Econ programs rather than switching a field altogether.

Of course, the lower ranked a program is, the worse are your prospects to get academic placement after it, other things equal. However, research jobs outside of universities (such as think tanks) will still be a viable option.

However, as I understand, that might be a little different for PhD Finance - there is a common opinion that PhD Finance graduates are scarse and in high demand, so that even people from lower ranked programs can get a satisfactory research job. Try to discuss this on the PhD Business forum, people there might shed more light on this.

 

The op's right in their assessment that if they can't do econ there's no way they'll manage finance. Its easy to get a job in finance because all the competition is frontloaded into the application stage since they have far fewer seats then econ programs in general.

 

I also totally agree that you can always get in somewhere, but that somewhere could require a lot more work (and beating the odds). I'd actually disagree the other posters arguing you should go with the MA if you love research and transfer up to the PhD if you can cut it. It makes far more sense to me to apply straight to PhD programs and try to cut it. If you can't you'll still wind up with an MA, but I have heard bad things about how hard it is to get into any good research job with an MA. There are a lot of people with a lot of experience swooping down to pick up jobs, and even if you're not competing with them you're up against the LSE and Duke grads from this year and the ones from past years who might not have gotten the job they wanted. Admittedly my friend was searching during this horrible job time, so it could just be because he had no experience during a bad part of the business cycle, but be aware that its not a safe backup.

[tab]

The only thing is, applying to jobs is not the same as applying to university. You have the opportunity to network and interact with people at the firms you are targeting and, yes a degree from LSE/Duke + RA is going to look better than the same degree from Simon Frasier University w/o RA but you can still get your name know, express interest to people within the firm, and get those positions through other channels. If you are in a PhD, you are going to dedicate zero hours to networking and, yeah, prob miss out on some of those jobs.

 

Its true, you can go strait into a Phd program but leaving a PhD program with an MA and obtaining an MA outright signal two different things to potential employees. It might not be extreme and you can talk your way through it, but its a signal nonetheless. Plus, as is often mentioned here, if you manage to kill it in your MA program, you realize you love research, and you pile on the math like you're at an all-you-can-eat, you will likely get into better programs, and get into better research jobs post PhD.

[interview]

There are several "applied economics" programs, like the one at Minnesota. In addition to ARE, you could choose to specialize in health, labor, or development economics. A few other schools have similar "applied" tracks that could lead to a career in academia.

 

Of course, another option would be first doing a master's degree then applying. For someone coming from a CC, that might be the best bet, if you are willing to spend the time and money.

 

Thanks.

[interview]

"However, will a PhD Econ program take someone with a BS degree from NoName Community College? (And yeah, many community colleges offer BS degrees these days)." - absolutely yes, i know some people who came from noname colleges and went to top 20 econ PhD programs...

 

Thank you - that gives me hope.

[interview]

So you've never even taken Calculus but you're considering a PhD Econ or Finance?

 

What are your research interests?

 

I went the GED route then took some basic Calculus and Stat but other than that I haven't taken any other math classes formally. As to my research interests, I studied the Oz Shy book and the Tirole book on my own, so I like that kind of IO type modeling.

[interview]

Hey Interview,

 

So it sounds to me like you want to be in an environment where you can solve complex problems, stuff that hasn't been solved yet (not working off of some template) but like to have your own space to work on them. I transfered out of a community college so my experience there might be different but I'd like to make a suggestion or two.

 

Like others have said, perhaps you should try for an MA/Msc in economics. From there, there are quite a few interesting professional positions that involve heavy research. Many think tanks like the IMF, Rand, World Bank, etc are very willing to take on those with economic masters degrees and place them into a research assistant position where you could continue conducting research. I think it might be a good first step or even plan-b because you can, with some degree of simplicity, jump back into an economics phd program afterwords. I don't mean to slight anyone on this forum but sometimes when reading people's responses you will get answers like "top 20 or bust" or "if you don't love economics, you will drop out". Everyone has their own reason for pursuing a PhD and I think that, while your signal is a bit fuzzy, I understand what you want out of your career/post collegiate experience and an econ PhD WILL get you there. The thing is, the ground path to a phd is lined with landmines and it sounds like you have your eyes toward the skies at the moment.

 

With that said, yes you do need more classes. Without even having taking the Calc series and a semester or two of real prob/stats you can kiss all economic research dreams goodbye but it looks as though you understand this and believe you can complete the requirements in time. I say you should go for your plan-a with everything you have and if your goals change then they change but you will have prepared yourself for those landmines much more thoroughly.

 

Thank you. I would not like to work for IMF, Rand, World Bank, or other companies even in research. I hate 9 to 5 jobs. It puzzles me why many professors work 9 to 5 like secretaries. I like the flexibility of an academic career where you choose your own hours. I see physicists working after midnight.

 

About going for Plan-A with everything I have, ummm, I am not so sure of that. There are so many landmines along the path. Any of which could derail me.

[interview]

I think it is fair to say that almost all people who really want an Econ PhD will eventually get in some program.

 

That may be an inference from the biased and limited sample on Urch or Test Magic. But I have a feeling that many people get derailed along the way for reasons not of their own choosing.

[interview]

 

I also totally agree that you can always get in somewhere,

 

I am not so sure about this. I enrolled for 7 classes at a university in my state and then decided to join a community college closer to home. I got a refund of my tuition from the state university but I didn't know I had to formally withdraw from all classes. The result: I have 7 F's, not really my fault. I thought getting a refund of my tuition implies automatic withdrawal. Which is severe transcript damage. I will have to report these grades otherwise the PhD program will learn of these 7 Fs from the National Student Clearing House. Those 7 Fs are going to horribly bring down my GPA and PhD programs will notice my low GPA. That's one reason (why) I need a plan-B.

[OneArmedEcon]

I am not so sure about this. I enrolled for 7 classes at a university in my state and then decided to join a community college closer to home. I got a refund of my tuition from the state university but I didn't know I had to formally withdraw from all classes. The result: I have 7 F's, not really my fault. I thought getting a refund of my tuition implies automatic withdrawal. Which is severe transcript damage. I will have to report these grades otherwise the PhD program will learn of these 7 Fs from the National Student Clearing House. Those 7 Fs are going to horribly bring down my GPA and PhD programs will notice my low GPA. That's one reason (why) I need a plan-B.

 

This really doesn't make sense to me. At places where I've gone to school, one needs to formally withdraw from all classes before they'll process any sort of a refund. If you received a full refund, then you shouldn't have received grades for those courses. You probably didn't fill out the proper paperwork, but it may be possible to reverse the damage.

 

In any event, there's probably some sort of appeals process that you can undertake in order to clean up your transcript. I would consult the university catalog and then contact the registrar and explain the situation (you may have to talk to a number of people before you'll get through to someone who can help you). If the registrar can't help you, then I would directly contact a senior administrator like the provost or associate dean of academic affairs (titles vary, but basically it will be the person who is in charge of academic policies). Regardless of whether you decide to do a PhD or not, I think that it's worth some investment of your time to try to get the 7 F's off your transcript.

 

If all that fails, then contact your representative to your state legislature. I'm totally serious--it's amazing how responsive university administrators are to state legislatures. But you really have nothing to lose by utilizing every option in order to clear up your academic record.

[duffymang]

In my opinion, going into academia just to go into academia is a terrible idea. Academia is a world for people who have an almost unheathy obsession with a subject. If that's not there, it will be obvious in your research and in your teaching. Given that you haven't take all those math classes, you're probably going to be in over your head in any phd program. If you still want to do it, then get serious and take them, but just be aware-- it's a long long road

[lessgiraffe]

Yeah, this whole post is a little confusing to me. You've said you've taken "advanced math courses" at your community college, but have yet to take calculus? If you're under the impression any "advanced," but non-calculus based math course is representative of a PhD in economics, I would caution you to seriously consider what you're about to undertake. Taking all those courses is going to take a fair amount of time (I would imagine to complete Mankiw's list you mentioned that would be at least 5-6 semesters) and money. Talk to an economics professor at a your outreach university (you've said it's good, so I'm hoping it's a Phd-granting institution) and see what life is like for a graduate student.

 

Also, I really don't understand how you can say you "love" academia, and thus come to the conclusion you want to be a professor. What sort of experience in academia do you have? Taking undergraduate classes is not academia. If this is your assumption, again, go talk to a professor and see what their life is like.

 

People are successful when they do what they love. There are studies all over that show successful people (defined by happiness or straight income) are the ones who took jobs they are passionate about and were even willing to pass up higher-paying jobs. In the end, these people make more money than the original money-chasers. My point is this, to say you could be a mathematician, physicist, economist, or financier while, at the same time, having (based on your posts) no experience in those realms just befuddles me. What are you really going after? Once you figure that out, you will narrow into what will actually bring you satisfaction. There's almost no way you're going to be successful or, more importantly, satisfied, if you are seeking a status as a "doctor" or a certain lifestyle a Ph.D. can provide. The question isn't about a master's or a doctorate, the question is what you really want to do with your life.

 

Why are you worried about a plan B at the moment? You know what you need to do in order to get into a Ph.D. program (take those math classes, learn them, and get good grades). If your question was simply whether a student with a GED can get into a Ph.D. program, I would believe this forum would say "yes." But, again, it seems like you don't really know what you want to do with your life. If you wanted to gauge how much work it would be to prepare, the answer is a lot. I'm thinking you were looking for a plan B because you don't really know what you want to do. In my opinion, start evaluating plan Bs when plan A fails.

 

Also, you are going to have to take the GRE and do well in it. And by well we mean a perfect or near-perfect score. It seems like you've been in school for a while (almost have a bachelor's I think), so start studying for the GRE now and see what your scores are. Like I said, economists have near-perfect scores to get into Ph.D. programs (which is 800 on the old test, 170 now). Studying your hardest for that perfect score should give you a gauge into what options you may have in the future.