alexanderplatz Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 (edited) I decided a bit late to try to pursue an Econ PhD--it's been a major of mine for a while, and I've been taking some math courses, but I do graduate in a year, so there's not just a whole lot of adapting I can do at this point. I understand the programs are competitive, and that's okay. I'd just like some thoughts on what I can do with what little wiggle room I've got, and what rank of school (Top 20? Top 50?) I should focus on. I'll work on my applications plenty, but that's easier to change. Graduating: May 2021 Type of Undergrad: Unranked (top ~120) U.S. University. BS in Econ, BA in Political Science & Spanish, Data Science minor. Think liberal arts school for what I’m studying--some research, but teaching-oriented. Undergrad GPA: 3.9+, should remain above or maybe dip into high 3.8s GRE: 170Q/170V/5.5 Undergrad Econ Courses: AP Macro, Intro Micro, Intermediate Macro/Micro, Applied Econometrics, Theories of Economic Growth, Labor (As). Game Theory and History of Econ (the latter required, unfortunately) planned. Math Courses: Linear Algebra (A), Stats (A). Calc III (summer), Mathematical Statistics planned. I have two spots open, and I’m trying to get into Advanced Calc I, but I don’t have the prerequisites; without a waiver, ODE + PDE or ODE + some proofs course. Other (Relevant?) Courses: Intro to Data Science (A). Data Mining planned. LORs: Professor I had for Intro Micro and will have for Game Theory (Dept Head), other I had for three courses and will assist with (informal) research over the summer. Unsure on 3rd, so will be shakier--but could be related to a fall research project. Programming: R, limited Python Research Experience: None in Econ at the moment, will have limited experience after summer. Was chosen for a Canadian Fulbright for the summer, but, y'know, pandemic. Fall project and (Spring) senior thesis planned. Teaching Experience: I tutored HS students (in government and US history) this past year; TAs are basically STEM-only at my UG. Work Experience: Nothing relevant to Econ/PhD. Research Interests: Transit/Transportation is a hobby interest of mine, so I’m looking at UC Irvine. Other than that, I’m fairly open, but skew toward Labor, Development (Micro), Public, maybe Resource. Concerns: At this stage, I feel like I’m doing what I can in terms of making myself competitive--I’d just prefer not to waste my time and money applying and getting rejected from schools beyond my reach. What kind of schools (rankings, though specific ones are good, too) should I be focusing on? I’m also not really sure where ranks lie (I’ve been using thissince it has subfields). I’m hesitant about going to a “low-ranked” PhD program, even though I’m not sure where that cutoff is. Thanks for your help! Edited June 4, 2020 by alexanderplatz formatting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
startz Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 You probably don't have enough math for a top 20. Consider trying for a pre-doc RA. Yes, it will add two years. But it could make a very big difference in (a) where you get in and (b) whether you still want to do en econ PhD after you learn more about what being an economist is really like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexanderplatz Posted June 4, 2020 Author Share Posted June 4, 2020 You probably don't have enough math for a top 20. Consider trying for a pre-doc RA. Yes, it will add two years. But it could make a very big difference in (a) where you get in and (b) whether you still want to do en econ PhD after you learn more about what being an economist is really like. Is the difference between top-20 programs and others that significant? That's certainly worth considering, but two years to add on top of five or six in a program seems like a lot. (I certainly agree with the idea of getting a feel for what it's like, though.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
startz Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 I didn't mean to suggest that a pre-doc would get you into a top-20. I just meant that you don't seem to have enough math yet to be considered at a top 20. A pre-doc will help at all schools. There is no sharp line between top-20 and other ranked programs. One thing to think about is whether you know whether you are interested in an academic career. Higher ranked institutions generally place better in academics, although there are exceptions. If you want a non-academic career, the rank is somewhat less important. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbones Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 Math Courses: Linear Algebra (A), Stats (A). Calc III (summer), Mathematical Statistics planned. I have two spots open, and I’m trying to get into Advanced Calc I, but I don’t have the prerequisites; without a waiver, ODE + PDE or ODE + some proofs course. I don't think you'd need Advanced Calc I after taking Calc III, but with ODE and Real Analysis (proofs course) you should have enough math to be considered at a top 20 school... maybe not the top 5 or even 10, but top 20 should be more fair game, particularly as your GRE scores really blew it out of the water... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayes Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 I don't think you'd need Advanced Calc I after taking Calc III, but with ODE and Real Analysis (proofs course) you should have enough math to be considered at a top 20 school... maybe not the top 5 or even 10, but top 20 should be more fair game, particularly as your GRE scores really blew it out of the water... Advanced Calculus is Real Analysis. It is not advisable to delude the applicant. Top 20 is beyond reach coming from an unranked program with no research experience or strong letters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
startz Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 I don't think you'd need Advanced Calc I after taking Calc III, but with ODE and Real Analysis (proofs course) you should have enough math to be considered at a top 20 school... maybe not the top 5 or even 10, but top 20 should be more fair game, particularly as your GRE scores really blew it out of the water... Advanced Calculus is Real Analysis. It is not advisable to delude the applicant. Top 20 is beyond reach coming from an unranked program with no research experience or strong letters. I had missed that Advanced Calculus is real analysis. If you can get into a real analysis course then you won't be automatically out at a Top 20. However, as Bayes explains, the chance of getting in a top 20 without something else very strong is not at all good. The great GREs are admirable, but will make little difference to admissions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laborsabre Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 Synthesizing what the last few posters have said, I think a decent strategy then is to maybe throw one or two top 20 schools into your application portfolio, while not being under the false impression that you are likely to be admitted. It is worthwhile to dig deep into the connections your letter writers have with faculty at other schools. Because academic hiring is so top skewed, you might find out some faculty at your school actually went to pretty good programs, and have connections to faculty at schools you are interested in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbones Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 Advanced Calculus is Real Analysis. It is not advisable to delude the applicant. Top 20 is beyond reach coming from an unranked program with no research experience or strong letters. If the OP can talk about the fall research project in the personal statement (should be just about completed by the time applications are due), then that could be a great opportunity to build on research experience and interests that match with faculty in the schools you're applying to (and should be an ideal fit with at least 1-2 faculty for research). Also mention the spring senior thesis on your personal statement, as that's a second research project of yours. You should probably already have a fairly good idea as to what that will be about, I'm guessing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayes Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 If the OP can talk about the fall research project in the personal statement (should be just about completed by the time applications are due), then that could be a great opportunity to build on research experience and interests that match with faculty in the schools you're applying to (and should be an ideal fit with at least 1-2 faculty for research). Also mention the spring senior thesis on your personal statement, as that's a second research project of yours. You should probably already have a fairly good idea as to what that will be about, I'm guessing... What is meant by Research Experience is being an RA to an active researcher. Independent research/thesis holds little value (as most are never read). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
startz Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 If the OP can talk about the fall research project in the personal statement (should be just about completed by the time applications are due), then that could be a great opportunity to build on research experience and interests that match with faculty in the schools you're applying to (and should be an ideal fit with at least 1-2 faculty for research). Also mention the spring senior thesis on your personal statement, as that's a second research project of yours. You should probably already have a fairly good idea as to what that will be about, I'm guessing... Matching research interests with the faculty is of relatively little importance for admissions in economics. Speculating about a research project you haven't done is generally a bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayes Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 (edited) Erased. Edited June 4, 2020 by Bayes un-relevant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tutonic Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 If the OP can talk about the fall research project in the personal statement (should be just about completed by the time applications are due), then that could be a great opportunity to build on research experience and interests that match with faculty in the schools you're applying to (and should be an ideal fit with at least 1-2 faculty for research). Also mention the spring senior thesis on your personal statement, as that's a second research project of yours. You should probably already have a fairly good idea as to what that will be about, I'm guessing... This is terrible advice. Please don't delude applicants by providing highly optimistic assessments. Virtually all Top 20 schools mention the implicit requirement of Real Analysis. It will only end up hurting them, when they don't get in anywhere if they apply in too high of a range. To the OP: since you have 2 courses free and might not be able to take Advanced Calc, see if you can take ODE and some other proof course. That might help things. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbones Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 What is meant by Research Experience is being an RA to an active researcher. Independent research/thesis holds little value (as most are never read). I agree that being an RA has the advantage of having a professor be better able to write an insightful LOR as well as increasing the likelihood of getting the professor's work published possibly with the RA's name also, but not all RA jobs get a published paper. On the other hand, an independent research project is much more individualized and can showcase the applicant's true research interests, and if written with care can, over time, be published by a journal. Being a coauthor as an RA may or may not be as valuable as exploring one's own research interests, especially as a senior year undergraduate student is likely to have a reasonably sophisticated foundation that can be built upon by research guided by faculty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbones Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 This is terrible advice. Please don't delude applicants by providing highly optimistic assessments. Virtually all Top 20 schools mention the implicit requirement of Real Analysis. It will only end up hurting them, when they don't get in anywhere if they apply in too high of a range. To the OP: since you have 2 courses free and might not be able to take Advanced Calc, see if you can take ODE and some other proof course. That might help things. Tutonic: I clearly stated that Real Analysis is needed. Where are you getting that statement from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayes Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 I agree that being an RA has the advantage of having a professor be better able to write an insightful LOR as well as increasing the likelihood of getting the professor's work published possibly with the RA's name also, but not all RA jobs get a published paper. On the other hand, an independent research project is much more individualized and can showcase the applicant's true research interests, and if written with care can, over time, be published by a journal. Being a coauthor as an RA may or may not be as valuable as exploring one's own research interests, especially as a senior year undergraduate student is likely to have a reasonably sophisticated foundation that can be built upon by research guided by faculty. This is completely delusional, unrealistic and horrible advice. One certainly cannot publish a paper without going through the necessary PhD courses and training. No school expects you to have a publishable paper by the time of admission. Also being an RA does not imply you will be a co-author.That is now how these things work, at all. I do not think you know what you are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayes Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 Erased. Reason: I'm done with this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbones Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 Wow, someone made an account DoggieBons... !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbones Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 This is completely delusional, unrealistic and horrible advice. One certainly cannot publish a paper without going through the necessary PhD courses and training. No school expects you to have a publishable paper by the time of admission. Also being an RA does not imply you will be a co-author.That is now how these things work, at all. I do not think you know what you are talking about. Are you saying that it's not possible or that it's not typical? Because there are many undergrads out there with publications, or at least publications to be, at the time of application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbones Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 Matching research interests with the faculty is of relatively little importance for admissions in economics. Speculating about a research project you haven't done is generally a bad idea. I always thought that an applicant's perceived fit at a given school has a lot to do with if the applicant's research interests align better with the current faculty's interests? Since the OP can start planning his fall research in advance, it's prudent one could say to brainstorm and gather ideas well in advance of an actual research course with a semester-long timeline... thank you for sharing your balanced experience startz, it's greatly appreciated! I'm not saying any of this will guarantee admissions to any school, and I don't think that can be said by anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayes Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 Anyone giving advice in this forum should refrain giving advice from what they think is right. Urch is especially a refuge for those coming from unranked programs as they don't have access to high quality faculty guiding them. The last thing we want to do is misguide them and completely eliminate their chances. Please, let's respond thoughtfully with an empirical approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
startz Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 Dogbones, let me be frank. I don't think you understand how PhD admissions work in economics. You are consistently giving advice that has an element of the truth, but the advice is often missing on the more important elements. I know that it is always well-meaning--I'm afraid you don't always know when the advice is helpful and when it isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbones Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 Dogbones, let me be frank. I don't think you understand how PhD admissions work in economics. You are consistently giving advice that has an element of the truth, but the advice is often missing on the more important elements. I know that it is always well-meaning--I'm afraid you don't always know when the advice is helpful and when it isn't. There's definitely much more I can learn from watching others respond and from outside of this forum, and I intend to keep on improving my understanding of a lot of things. That being said, you're probably right that the way I present what I have gathered may not be aligned with best interests... I'm open-minded, but I just don't like to see negativity dominate without solutions and paths to improvement also being considered and shared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexanderplatz Posted June 6, 2020 Author Share Posted June 6, 2020 Okay, Jesus Christ. I skimmed the last two pages of this thread, and I wanted to thank Tutonic and Laborsabre specifically for what seems to be solid advice: to take ODE and a proofs course failing a chance to take Advanced Calc/Real Analysis, and (maybe) trying for a couple of top-20 schools without expecting too much. I probably wasn't too clear in my original post, but I'm less concerned with what to do now than where to look at. I know more math would help; I know RAing would help (but hasn't been an option, really. If something comes up, I'll go for it); I know to not get my hopes up. I didn't mention a school except UC Irvine, and I'm in the information-gathering stage right now. If I was really committed to going to Yale or whatever, I wouldn't be planning to apply for PhD programs at all in the fall. I'd like to think I have at least some self-awareness! I guess top-20 institutions get the lion's share of everything, so I understand the concern with that. But there's not much I can do or change before the application process in the fall. And, that said, I'll talk to faculty at my school before applying. I have good relations with them, but I figured for my own research at this stage, it'd be okay not to bother them right now. Asking internet strangers is a crapshoot, of course. If anyone has a ballpark range of ranks I should look at, or maybe a seemingly-achievable school given my research interests, please say something! Thread's probably dead, but at least I got something out of it, and hopefully others can, too. Thanks to everyone for the advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayes Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 Okay, Jesus Christ. I skimmed the last two pages of this thread, and I wanted to thank Tutonic and Laborsabre specifically for what seems to be solid advice: to take ODE and a proofs course failing a chance to take Advanced Calc/Real Analysis, and (maybe) trying for a couple of top-20 schools without expecting too much. I probably wasn't too clear in my original post, but I'm less concerned with what to do now than where to look at. I know more math would help; I know RAing would help (but hasn't been an option, really. If something comes up, I'll go for it); I know to not get my hopes up. I didn't mention a school except UC Irvine, and I'm in the information-gathering stage right now. If I was really committed to going to Yale or whatever, I wouldn't be planning to apply for PhD programs at all in the fall. I'd like to think I have at least some self-awareness! I guess top-20 institutions get the lion's share of everything, so I understand the concern with that. But there's not much I can do or change before the application process in the fall. And, that said, I'll talk to faculty at my school before applying. I have good relations with them, but I figured for my own research at this stage, it'd be okay not to bother them right now. Asking internet strangers is a crapshoot, of course. If anyone has a ballpark range of ranks I should look at, or maybe a seemingly-achievable school given my research interests, please say something! Thread's probably dead, but at least I got something out of it, and hopefully others can, too. Thanks to everyone for the advice. You should speak with your letter writers ASAP if you are applying this fall and ask them these questions. Based on where they sent their students in the recents years, only they can give a healthy ballpark on where to apply. You wouldn't bother them and not asking them at this point(and thus postponing) would be a grave mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.