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Should I accept the LSE MRes/PhD Economics offer ?


bango

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Should I accept the LSE offer ?

I must decide if I accept or not an offer from LSE for the PhD in Economics. Although a lot of people tell me I shoudn't hesitate, I am deeply in doubt because other people that know me very well tell me that I could get into better programs in USA.

 

The trade-off is wait another year and apply for the big schools in USA and start the PhD at LSE in September this year.

 

I have applied for the big universities this year in USA. My problem was that I had only two very strong recommendations, but the third one was not so strong. Actually, the professor that wrote me that letter pretended that he would write a very good recommandation, but, for political reasons, he didn't do so. (the only university that he didn't recommend me was LSE, and I am in)

 

Anyway, I can have three very strong letters this year - this time for sure - (I was best student from best school in a latin-american country). Do you recommend me to take LSE this year on wait another year for the big universities in USA? Is it worth waiting another year only to be in a top5? Does LSE give a very good researcher in potential all the necessary tools to become a good researcher in practice?

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Evaluate my profile please!! Thanks economicus. Sorry, I really think it was only because of one recommandation letter that my application was not so good. Please, see my profile and tell me what you think!!!

 

Everybody in my Econ Dept said that I was in Princeton, due to my profile (it had been 10 years that my dept had put at least one student a year in Princeton; and they were always my profile: best macro student of dept)

 

look at my profile and tell me what you think, please:

 

Profile:

 

Gre: 800 Q, 470 V, 4.5 A

GPA: Overall: 8.3 / 10 - ranked 3rd in a class of 50 (Engineer Undergrad). 8.5 / 10 in MA in Economics (top program in a LA Country). Ranked 2nd in my graduating class.

Classes:

Graduate: Probability, Real Analysis, Linear Algebra, Statistics, Econometrics, Time Series, Asset Pricing, Corporate Finance, Monetary Economics, International Finance, Microeconomics, Dynamic Optimization, Macroeconomics

 

Type of Undergrad: top 5 french engineer 'grande ecole' and top 5 brazilian engineer school (double diploma program)

Research Experience: RA in Macroeconomics for a very well known Economist / research in undergrad for Computational Vision; Master Thesis completed in MA in Economics

Teaching Experience: Maths TA (Graduate Level)

LORs: Three strong econ profs (2 MIT, 1 Princeton) in my field at a top US school; one of them former chairman of Central Bank ; another a former deputy Central Bank; these two were very very strong about me;

the third one put me behind the person that ranked 1st in my class: he wrote in the letter that I was very strong for quantitative reasoning but that I hadn't still showed research ability

SoP & Interests: Macroeconomics, Monetary Economics

Other: Lived in a foreign country for 3 years; worked as an intern for two big french carmakers; worked as an intern for an investment bank

 

 

Admissions Decisions

Harvard- rejected

MIT- rejected

Princeton- rejected

Chicago- rejected

Columbia- rejected

Yale- rejected

Stanford- rejected

 

Chicago GSB- rejected

LBS- rejected

Columbia GSB- rejected

NYU Stern- rejected

HBS- rejected

Wharton- rejected

HAAS- rejected

Sloan- rejected

 

NYU - waitlisted and rejected

 

LSE - accepted (no $, waiting for a funding decision for an agency)

 

What should I have done differently: I shoud have alternated my third letter. For the Economics PhD School, the only one that I didn't sent the 'bomb letter', I was accepted; I talked to the three recommendors after the results and then I confirmed. The two 'good' recomendors told that I was excellent and best student. The third 'bomb-letter' recomendor put me behind another guy in my class and wrote that althoug I was very strong in quantitative reasoning, I had not yet shown up my research skills. That kills an application. So, if you are not 100% sure about what your recommendor will write about you, forget it!!! ? And try to have four letters, so as to alternate the third one.

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Honest advice: If you truly want to become a professor in the US, accept a one-year position as research assistant in the US immediately and re-apply this winter (with more research experience and another recommender).

 

If you want to get a PhD to enter some non-academic organization, accept the LSE offer.

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Accept LSE and then apply to the US programs in the Fall. If you get in you can decide to stay or go. If you don't get into your dream program you're already in LSE's program and they never even have to know that you applied. If they want to keep you and you want to stay the US offers will put you in a good position to negotiate for better funding. I know several people who applied to US schools while in the first year of the MRes and are now in top 10 US schools (partly because they wanted to get into a US school and partially as insurance because LSE has been known to cut their PhD classes).

 

LSE is very Chicago-esq, not just in the class cutting, but also the star-system philosophy (ie we decide early who our top few students are and invest in them and everyone else has a hard time getting advising, etc).

 

Most US programs will let you test out of micro and econometrics (or give you credit outright) so you probably won't have to repeat most of the coursework if you do move to a US program.

 

Good luck!

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if i were in your situation, i'll accept the LSE offer, spend a year and be the best student, find an RA position in a top 5 US programme for the summer then apply for Fall 2009 admissions...but that's just me since i'm very risk averse in the sense that i'll do almost every preparation i can to boost my chances in getting into a top school, even if people tell me that my profile's already good enough.

 

(i know of at least one person in this message board that roughly is doing what I just said)

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fp3690 and betahat,

 

are you sure this strategy of going to LSE and then applying in Fall to US Schools is conceivable? Don't you think my recommendors will be upset about that? Because if they recommended me to LSE and then recommend to a US School in fall, aren't they breaking up the rules with LSE, which could make their future recommandations not worthy ? Won't they think about that if I ask them so ?

 

Otherwise, if it is a normal situation, it really seems to me a good strategy, because I wouldn't wait another year and could still get into a US School in the state of the nature they accept my application. Wait another year and risk being rejected could be very very devastating to me!!!

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fp3690 and betahat,

 

are you sure this strategy of going to LSE and then applying in Fall to US Schools is conceivable? Don't you think my recommendors will be upset about that? Because if they recommended me to LSE and then recommend to a US School in fall, aren't they breaking up the rules with LSE, which could make their future recommandations not worthy ? Won't they think about that if I ask them so ?

 

Otherwise, if it is a normal situation, it really seems to me a good strategy, because I wouldn't wait another year and could still get into a US School in the state of the nature they accept my application. Wait another year and risk being rejected could be very very devastating to me!!!

 

 

my "closest" LOR writer actually told me to apply to the best US programs after I finish my 1 year in Toulouse...while we were having our last lunch right before I left for France! though I won't be needing LORs from people here (Toulouse), people tell me that profs would be happy to see one of their former students get into a top 5 US program.

 

how badly do you want to attend a top 10 program? based on the choice of schools you had during the last cycle, seems like you don't even have room for anything less. i honestly think that re-applying this coming Fall with the same profile (sans the "bad" LOR...but you should take that as a constructive criticism...maybe you do lack research skills so doing an RA job or co-authoring a publishable [in a field journal] paper would definitely help) is not a good strategy in pursuing your goal to attend the best program possible. there's a chance that i'm wrong but investing a year ironing and polishing your profile (the benefits of which extend beyond getting admitted) would only do you good.

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This is a very difficult situation. I would recommend getting more research experience (esp. if your experience is not as polished as you would like to believe), in case the universities look at your previous profile with the 'bad' recommendation (electronic databases might allow that). It is not clear that you would be able to start from a blank slate.

 

I am worried about leaving LSE mid-way. You'll have to indicate that you are in MRes during your applications but won't have LOR's from it, which might make them suspect you are doing poorly and want to get out (?). So a school knows that you got rejected a year ago and now applying from LSE... doesn't look right and hard to explain.

 

Ask LSE to defer for a year, so you can (excuse) work on RA project in USA (truth). I am not sure how you could find one. Usually people with large NSF grants or people affiliated with large foundations pay for RA (data) work or they prefer hiring own students. Does the Federal Reserve hire? I suspect you might need some visa like H1B and I don't know how easy it is to get for a temporary position.

 

By the way, I don't think French intern experience and I-banking experience add anything to your profile as a researcher (only indirectly if that helped you round yourself to win some international scholarship like Rhodes/Marshall/Gates).

 

___

Good luck!

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I really don't understand why didn't you get in the other schools that you applied to. With your profile (and guessing that you're from PUC Rio where they indeed put at least one student in Princeton a year) I'd reapply again this fall, if a top 5 in US is the only thing that you want. I don't think it's a good idea going to LSE and thinking about changing the program because of the same reasons that you already mentioned and because it's pretty hard to concentrate meanwhile the application/final results process. And you may know better than me that there's not much room for distractions in the first year, so... What makes you think twice about going to LSE?
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What should I have done differently: I shoud have alternated my third letter. For the Economics PhD School, the only one that I didn't sent the 'bomb letter', I was accepted; I talked to the three recommendors after the results and then I confirmed. The two 'good' recomendors told that I was excellent and best student. The third 'bomb-letter' recomendor put me behind another guy in my class and wrote that althoug I was very strong in quantitative reasoning, I had not yet shown up my research skills. That kills an application. So, if you are not 100% sure about what your recommendor will write about you, forget it!!! ? And try to have four letters, so as to alternate the third one.

 

I'm a bit skeptical that this is the reason you had problems. Unless he really wrote that you were terrible or something negative, two very strong letters and one still-fairly-good positive letter shouldn't have killed the application everywhere, I don't think. It might be that at some places, other applicants had all three letters be super-strong, but you'd think that at least some of the places you applied they would be satisfied with the two super-strong letters if the third was still positive. After all, some profs are just better at writing letters than others and so it should be a bit random for everyone.

 

That being said, I don't see anything else "wrong" with your application, in any way. Maybe it was the LOR, maybe the schools you applied to decided they already had enough Latin American people for the year that they knew from other things like RA-ing or some such, maybe the SOP didn't show a good fit, who knows. But I'm a bit hesitant that this would have made all the difference; still, re-applying should give you better luck....

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cassin, you are right about the reapplication process. Although I don't know exactly how it works, it is very likely they go after what went wrong last year. So I'd be better do an RA-ing in USA. I tried a contact at the World Bank, but it didn't work out, as they had already caught someone else. I'd love to go RA-ing in a American university, but I don't know how.

 

At this moment, I am RA-ing for a Brazilian Economist, I think it sort of can help me about the "reasearck skill weakness". (my senior thesis was considered one of the best in my grad class; the recommendant that said I don't have research skills yet didn't go to any of student research workshops; he wrote that without really knowing any of the reasearch works in my grad class)

 

karina, I don't agree with you. I don't think that a not-so-strong letter (even worse, a letter saying I don't have research skills) is not so determinant!!! how can you explain the only place I didn't sent the letter I was accepted?

 

phdphd, what dou you mean about not thinking twice? At my place, you woudn't hesitate waiting another year or you would accept the LSE offer immediately?

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how can you explain the only place I didn't sent the letter I was accepted?

 

Because the process is not very transparent and fairly random. Back a long time ago, I applied for a lot of scholarships and programs (not for the Ph.D.). Every application but one, I wrote one thing; for the other one, I wrote another. That was the only one that was awarded to me, and I was convinced it was due to what I wrote for the longest time... in retrospect, it doesn't really seem reasonable, though.

 

Add-on, later: I mean, if it was truly a *negative* letter, as I said, yes that would seem more credible. Part of my doubt is because it seemed you were saying it was just overall neutral. Maybe a little positive of a letter, just not a strong one, even. I guess it depends what exactly he wrote and how exactly that was interpreted.

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I don't think that a not-so-strong letter (even worse, a letter saying I don't have research skills) is not so determinant!!! how can you explain the only place I didn't sent the letter I was accepted?

 

 

it could really mean a lot of things. For one, LSE admissions might not be as competitive last cycle compared to the other schools you've applied to. Or suppose that the bad LOR was indeed a significant factor. This could mean two things at least. One is the counterfactual with you, not sending the letter and consequently getting admitted to other schools you applied to (which I think is probably what you believe in); and two, if you sent the letter to LSE, you would've been rejected (which a pessismistic person would tend to think). Either way, you won't really know.

 

Anyway, I'm curious as to what the reaction of your two good LOR writers with regard to the results of your applications. If at least one of them feels strongly about getting you in a good program, then maybe he or she can start telling his/her colleagues about how great a student you are. This can even land you an RA job with someone in the US.

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phdphd, what dou you mean about not thinking twice? At my place, you woudn't hesitate waiting another year or you would accept the LSE offer immediately?

 

I meant why you are hesitating about going to LSE. I would go if funded directly by them but not otherwise, as the Capes/Fullbright fellowship requires us to come back to Brasil after finishing the PhD (though I love Brasil). But I'm saying this conditionally on having your profile because I think you can make it a top ten, if not what else the adcoms are expecting? Hence, in your place I wouldn't hesitate waiting another year, meanwhile trying to polish my master thesis or working as a RA for a professor at your department, I don't think it's even necessary to go to US (well, as I said before I guess you're at PUC Rio or EPGE where there are bunch of professors to work with).

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That's a very hard situation, but there are some points to consider.

First, keep in mind that your case is sui generis. As you said, and probably you're right, you got a weak LOR for political reasons. I don't know much about politics at your department, but may be the case that your professors are committed to students from the next class. It seems to me that they place very well in PhD program; so I think there is some coordination there. You did well in classes and, for some reason weren't ranked well among your peers. How well would you be ranked among students from next class who will apply? Is there any student from a previous class that applied last year? How good was him as a student and how good was his performance in application?

Try to disclosure such info before deciding to re-apply. I would re-apply!

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there are hundreds of people with much better profiles than you, american top 10 are very very competitive I think you should apply to something between Top 15 to Top 25 in the USA, or just take the EUROPE LSE offer this year which is a very good one, remember every year the competition becomes stronger, so I wouldn' turn down LSE, I know you are pretty sure of yourself, but even the best school in Latin America at most ranks 170 or so in the World, so this is actually bad. There are much better undergraduate programs in other countries aside from LA, take a look to econphd.net rankings . Good luck in your search

 

 

Actually, it is quite common for students from Argentina and Brazil to get into top 10 and even top 5. This year, considering only EPGE and PUC-Rio, the best brazilian schools, there are 3 students going to NYU, 2 going to MIT, 1 going to Harvard, 1 going to Berkeley, 1 going to Chicago. And I know that a similar pattern is true for Argentina. Does it sound bad?

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  • 3 months later...
Actually, it is quite common for students from Argentina and Brazil to get into top 10 and even top 5. This year, considering only EPGE and PUC-Rio, the best brazilian schools, there are 3 students going to NYU, 2 going to MIT, 1 going to Harvard, 1 going to Berkeley, 1 going to Chicago. And I know that a similar pattern is true for Argentina. Does it sound bad?

 

I agree. Most recently, Princeton has admitted 4 Argentinians (Univ Nacional de Cordoba, Universidad Torcuato Di Tella x2, University of Buenos Aires) and 2 Brazilians (Getulio Vargas Foundation EPGE, unlisted university), out of which 3 Argentinians have matriculated [all with very strong math backgrounds]. In previous years, Brazilians and Argentenians were frequently admitted as well. Northwestern frequently admits Argentenians too, seeing as their adcom chair is Argentenian himself (less asymmetric information in evaluating profiles).

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The link between Princeton and Brazilians' students could also be explained by the link existent between some Faculty at Princeton and PUC Rio (in fact, they generally accept two students from there each year).

 

Fundacao Getulio Vargas is one of the most important colleges of higher education that Brazil has. It is only compared with IMPA, USP, UFRJ and PUC (all of them top in Latin America) and although is not listed, is very well know among academicians.

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