Is it common for students from low ranked Phd program transferring to high ranked?

[econyun]

I found that it is terribly hard to get in any top 10 phd program...

especially like MIT...

I would like to ask if I can first get in a lower rank,let say 10-25th Econ Phd program in US...then apply to top 5 or even top 10 after I got a master two years later???

 

Is it easier?? Is it harder? Is it Common?

Any opinion about this option.? I know that most phd does not intend to recruit students for MA...but for phd...

The thing is....if I dont tell....:p

[macroeconomicus]

I know there were some isolated success stories (not in the top 10), but this is not common, so I wouldn't count on it too much. You probably need to be better than the rest of your class. You probably need to obtain letters of recommendation from current professors, which seems awkward. In fact, don't ask, just go ahead and try.. Just make sure you have a contingency plan (e.g. you take the coursework and research at the top 25 program seriously and feel comfortable working there to the end of degree program if you don't succeed to transfer). Note that in most cases you would have to retake a whole bunch of courses unless you can pass the prelims.

[Terd Ferguson]

I think once you are in the lower ranked program you will change your mind. I disappointed when I didn't get into a top 15 school. My school is ranked about 25. There are about 30 people in my year and I told myself that If i was in the top 5 that I would try to transfer. I would honestly put myself closer to the bottom 5 now after being here for a few months. I have an undergrad degree in math (although I did take some weak classes), and I found myself to be really under prepared. I'm not saying that you won't be as smart as the other students, but a lot of the foreign students have ridiculous computational skills. I went from being disappointed in going to my school to feeling lucky. Unless you are 1) abnormally gifted or 2) very well prepared, it will be hard for you to rise to the top of your class. Sorry to be a little negative, but I just wanted to give you an idea of how strong the students are at not top schools. My advice is to get a masters in math if you really want to get into a top school (that is if you don't feel like you will get in currently).

[dr_Shpak]

i know 2 people who change schools from top20 to top3

first - Rutgers-Wharton

second MSU-Harvard

[ekonomiks]

I think once you are in the lower ranked program you will change your mind. I disappointed when I didn't get into a top 15 school. My school is ranked about 25. There are about 30 people in my year and I told myself that If i was in the top 5 that I would try to transfer. I would honestly put myself closer to the bottom 5 now after being here for a few months. I have an undergrad degree in math (although I did take some weak classes), and I found myself to be really under prepared. I'm not saying that you won't be as smart as the other students, but a lot of the foreign students have ridiculous computational skills. I went from being disappointed in going to my school to feeling lucky. Unless you are 1) abnormally gifted or 2) very well prepared, it will be hard for you to rise to the top of your class. Sorry to be a little negative, but I just wanted to give you an idea of how strong the students are at not top schools. My advice is to get a masters in math if you really want to get into a top school (that is if you don't feel like you will get in currently).

 

I hear you, man. There are a lot of incredibly smart people with extremely strong profiles at lower-ranked schools. These are people who could have gone to top schools, but I guess they just didn't want to or didn't care.

[Golden Rule]

I never understood the logic of why a top five program would suddenly accept someone from a lower-ranked program after two years. Most of the time during your first two years is spent taking courses, and why should a top school care if you do well in coursework? No one cares in the end about grades-- research is the ultimate goal. I think to make a transfer work you'd have to get through all your coursework successfully and still make progress in research that demonstrates you'd be a better fit at another school.

 

But there's a bit of a Catch-22 there -- you might need someone strong in your field to credibly recommend you for another school, but if there's someone strong in your field at your school, why should you transfer and why should they endorse your transfer? Or maybe there's someone from another field who recognizes your greatness, but then it's also hard to make research progress with no one good to advise you in your field. I can only see this working if you see someone at a school who is match for you in a very specific area of interest, you've met them somehow possibly through a faculty member at your school, and they want to work with you already. I'd think the transfer would have to be very personal.

 

So anyway, I wouldn't count on it. Does anyone know of any specific cases of this working out? I just can't imagine it.

 

EDIT: thought of one plausible scenario. Suppose you had really bad grades as an undergrad, but demonstrated some clear evidence of research promise -- i.e. award-winning thesis, blue-ribbon publication, etc. But your grades were enough to keep you out of top programs. Then maybe doing well in courses in a second-tier program would be helpful.

[YoungEconomist]

I don't have any evidence to back me up, but it seems like this strategy would be less likely to work at top 5 schools. Besides, is it even worth it? I would much rather graduate at 28 with a PhD from a school ranked 25th, then spend two years there, and then transfer and spend another 4 years at a top 5 (retaking the exact classes I already took) and graduate at 30.

[YoungEconomist]

I think once you are in the lower ranked program you will change your mind. I disappointed when I didn't get into a top 15 school. My school is ranked about 25. There are about 30 people in my year and I told myself that If i was in the top 5 that I would try to transfer. I would honestly put myself closer to the bottom 5 now after being here for a few months. I have an undergrad degree in math (although I did take some weak classes), and I found myself to be really under prepared. I'm not saying that you won't be as smart as the other students, but a lot of the foreign students have ridiculous computational skills. I went from being disappointed in going to my school to feeling lucky. Unless you are 1) abnormally gifted or 2) very well prepared, it will be hard for you to rise to the top of your class. Sorry to be a little negative, but I just wanted to give you an idea of how strong the students are at not top schools. My advice is to get a masters in math if you really want to get into a top school (that is if you don't feel like you will get in currently).

 

This is interesting. I was talking to a professor last year, and he was saying that our program (ranked approximately 30) has some international students that are at the top of the class. He said that these people probably have the ability to be at much better schools. He said they probably wound up at our school because 1) it's harder for adcoms to figure out their ability because of the different schools, grading scales, etc. 2) the students may not know exactly what schools they can get into, and exactly how various programs are ranked.

[Fulbrighterpak]

i know 2 people who change schools from top20 to top3

first - Rutgers-Wharton

second MSU-Harvard

 

 

Can you tell details about what exactly they did to get into those 2 schools???

 

Like was it transfer from Econ to Economics or Economics to Finance (since Wharton B-school) ....Did profs from Rutgers and MSU wrote there recs...or they used old recommendations...grades etc at Rutgers and MSU...

 

I would appreciate if can tell us more details...cause of i have seen this thread on Econ PhD zillion times...and once for an all ....if u can provide some good anecdotal evidence than we can conclude something on this...

[studentecon]

i know 2 people who change schools from top20 to top3

first - Rutgers-Wharton

second MSU-Harvard

 

I believe it is U Mich and not MSU. And for the sake of the argument, that person already had an extraordinary Master's and was only one or two months at Michigan when he applied at Harvard. I ll give one other example: from NYU to Harvard BusEc. The same caveats apply in this case also.

 

Sometimes I feel there are people in this forum that try to push arguments even though there is no evidence for that (I am not referring to the OP): It is highly unlikely that coursework at some low ranked PhD can get you in a top school. (note, I am not saying that one cannot transfer in general). On the contrary, applying from a mediocre PhD is a low-cost signal for rejection.

[econyun]

so does anybody here from Top 10 who know any of their classmates from 2nd tier Phd program transferred to their program???

 

If you dont mind, please feel free to share it with us.

[savingtheplanet]

I believe it is U Mich and not MSU. And for the sake of the argument, that person already had an extraordinary Master's and was only one or two months at Michigan when he applied at Harvard. I ll give one other example: from NYU to Harvard BusEc. The same caveats apply in this case also.

 

actually, he was at umich for two years. theres a link to his profile somewhere on this forum.

[Karina 07]

When I hear of switches, it's within the top 10, not from it or to it.

[econyun]

When I hear of switches, it's within the top 10, not from it or to it.

 

from top 10 to top 10???

 

Why?:hmm:

[Karina 07]

from top 10 to top 10???

 

Why?:hmm:

 

I've heard of maybe 2 or 3 cases of this happening for people's personal reasons, essentially (significant other, dying parent...). But even that is rare.

[werther]

No offense, but I think the OP is being unrealistically optimistic. Also, this board somehow gives too much credit to Canadian programs (I recall OP doing his or her undergraduate studies in Canada). I think European MAs (i.e. LSE/UPF/whatever) have much better chance at getting into top-ranked US PhDs than any Canadian program (unless you are an exceptional student - but if you were so exceptional, you probably shouldn't've bothered with a Master's). I am at an ok Canadian MA program and if I've noticed anything here, it is that Canadian students in general

 

 

Another thing, I think that you should consider yourself lucky to be in any econ PhD program ranked

 

I hope I didn't sound too harsh. But I'm just giving you my honest opinion (of which you can wholly disregard). After all this is just a forum. Good luck with your applications.

[Sammy6]

I am currently in the process of trying to do such a transfer. Here is my two-sense:

1. It is hard. In fact, it is harder that trying to get into a top school in the first place, which doesn't seem to make much sense as you have much stronger signals coming from a 20-30 program than you do straight out of undergrad. But, that's life...

2. It is certainly possible. I am lucky enough to have several professors at my current school who have been willing to discuss this with me. The consensus is I cannot, in general, count on getting into a top 5 school, but I have a descent chance. On the whole, they think I should be able to transfer to a top 5-10 school without much of a problem. This information has to be coming from someplace, so I would assume transfering is a distinct possibility.

Sam

[asquare]

Let me start with this: I am a third year student at the University of Michigan. I did not get into any of the top-5 programs I applied to, and at first, I was convinced that I'd be the best student in the program and would transfer up to where I really belonged. But in reality, I am very, very happy where I am. I'm surrounded by smart people, I'm doing research I am excited about and that my advisors think is quite promising, I have wonderful interactions with the faculty in my department, and I would have lost more than I could have gained by transfering.

 

I think transfering seems a much more attractive or important option before you start your PhD than after. This is because once you start graduate school, you begin to understand the whole range of factors that contribute to your experience in school and your job placement afterwards. And school rank is only one of these factors! This forum and applicants in general place too much weight on rank without properly discounting for selection, IMO.

 

A partial list of the other factors that matter are the quality of your own research, the quality of your peers, your relationship with your advisors, the prestige of those advisors and their publications, your standing within your own department, and funding. Of course, these things are all correlated. But they are also a function of the match between you and the school you attend.

 

People often underestimate the faculty and students at so-called "second tier" schools. I am NOT claiming that there is no difference between the top 5 and the top 30. But schools ranked 20-40 are still excellent places to get solid training in economics, especially for the motivated student who chooses a school strong in his fields. And the other students at these schools will be just as bright and motivated as you are!

 

Do NOT be fooled into thinking you are going to be the top student, coasting through everything and bored by the people around you. In particular, if you come in with a strong math background and find yourself at the top of the class early in the program, do not assume that math is all there is to an econ PhD. Research relies on a separate though related set of skills.

 

A PhD in any field is mostly what you make of the opportunities around you. You can do excellent work from any "second tier" school if you have the talent and ability. The course work is similar across schools. Everyone has access to the same journals and conferences. You can spend a semester or year as a visiting student at another school or a research institution like NBER. There are irrefutible advantages to attending a top-5 program. But if you don't get in, you are far better off taking advantage of the very good things about the school you do attend than spending all of your energy trying to get into a different school.

 

Finally, I will concur with all of the posters who have pointed out that if you didn't get in to a top-5 program the first time, you are unlikely to do so by transfering. Schools want to give PhDs to students they trained, not those trained by another, lower-ranked school. And it may not be a popular opinion, but admissions committees do have some idea what they are doing. If they looked at your application and judged it weaker than those of students who succeed at their school, they might be right. The application process is imperfect but not entirely random nor devoid of useful information.

[ekonomiks]

I think transfering seems a much more attractive or important option before you start your PhD than after. This is because once you start graduate school, you begin to understand the whole range of factors that contribute to your experience in school and your job placement afterwards. And school rank is only one of these factors! This forum and applicants in general place too much weight on rank without properly discounting for selection, IMO.

 

Absolutely true.

[notacolour]

Every several months, this question comes up. I applaud asquare for making excellent points, more reasonably than I would have.

 

 

Lots of people go into what they see as "lesser" schools thinking they'll just completely blow everyone away and demonstrate their utter superiority. Very few do. And even if they do excel in the coursework, this doesn't necessarily translate to research.

 

So: go to the school that's the best fit for you (that will also accept you), and make the best of it. If something really comes up that changes circumstances drastically, or you realize your true calling is in some field that your department just isn't able to help you with, a transfer might be an option. Absent some excellent reason along those lines, though, there is absolutely no reason to piss everybody off by telling them you're too good for the program--and likely, you'll find out you're not as good as you thought you were, anyway. Even if you are, you might manage to realize by that point that other factors besides the rank of the department actually do matter.

[YoungEconomist]

But if you don't get in, you are far better off taking advantage of the very good things about the school you do attend than spending all of your energy trying to get into a different school.

 

I think this is a great piece of advice.