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Is the University of Utah a waste?


Railroadme

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Hmm. If you are not really attached to the label of being an economist, then you might want to shoot for the 'best' program you can get into, even if that field is not technically economics. Your research interests sound inherently interdisciplinary so I don't know if it's crucial you get training in economics. Your quantitative skills might also be comparatively more desirable in a field where such training is less common.

 

I agree that this is an alternative worth considering.

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I am thinking Economic Sociology but there are only ten schools and I live in Utah. Syracuse and Albany are options for me because I am from NY and have tons of family there. However, I look at it this way I will have a BIS in Public Administration, Social Work, and Math---not sure if that will get me in anywhere but the not so great schools. I will have to apply and see...
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I will admit---I like the label Economist...LOL. I'm into Bio-Ethics, Birth-Control, and Inadequate Parenting. One of my professors said he thinks Economics is the most useful. However, as I read on, most people feel Economics is no good unless its a top tier school. I was just thinking my vets pref would offset the school---the Vet Pref is utilized not only for Federal jobs, but also State---which would include State Universities.

 

Thank you by the way for your responses.

 

 

I get annoyed when people say "so and so degree is not worth it unless you come get into one of the top schools". Guess what? This is pretty much true for each and every degree you can get. The value of a JD, MBA, etc., drops drastically as you go down the rung. Guess what? Not everyone is a genius or skilled enough to go to the best of the best. Contrary to what Test Magic forums might imply, this is completely OKAY! If you like economics, I say go for it. There is a reason why there are low-level econ programs just like there is a reason why there are community colleges. If they weren't worth it, they wouldn't exist. At least that's what the free market would dictate, right oh wise econ forum?

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I get annoyed when people say "so and so degree is not worth it unless you come get into one of the top schools". Guess what? This is pretty much true for each and every degree you can get. The value of a JD, MBA, etc., drops drastically as you go down the rung. Guess what? Not everyone is a genius or skilled enough to go to the best of the best. Contrary to what Test Magic forums might imply, this is completely OKAY! If you like economics, I say go for it. There is a reason why there are low-level econ programs just like there is a reason why there are community colleges. If they weren't worth it, they wouldn't exist. At least that's what the free market would dictate, right oh wise econ forum?

 

The debate on the merit of Utah (in this thread) was not based on the overall ranking of the department, it was based on the fact that it is a heterodox dept.

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Railroadme: "However, as I read on, most people feel Economics is no good unless its a top tier school."

 

I'm just elucidating that the overachievers on TestMagic sometimes don't appreciate the merits of lower-ranked programs in general, which can engender a feeling of self-inanity.

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If they weren't worth it, they wouldn't exist. At least that's what the free market would dictate, right oh wise econ forum?

 

I don't doubt that such programs have value. Several economics professors I know at my undergrad institution got their PhDs from schools well outside the top-50 and yet have solid research careers. However, because universities are heavily subsidized, there are certainly more economics PhD programs than would exist in a free market.

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Railroadme: "However, as I read on, most people feel Economics is no good unless its a top tier school."

 

I'm just elucidating that the overachievers on TestMagic sometimes don't appreciate the merits of lower-ranked programs in general, which can engender a feeling of self-inanity.

 

If you want to argue that people on this board are condescending towards heterodox departments, I will concede the point and plead guilty myself. But for mid-low ranked Ph.D. programs in general, I don’t get that attitude at all.

If people are telling you that for the Econ Ph.D., it only makes sense if you can go to a top program, then they don’t know what they are talking about. Economics is one of the few fields where this not true. There are plenty of mid-low ranked programs that place their stars into research programs and almost all of their graduates into at least teaching/government/private sector jobs. If your attitude is research or bust, then you should avoid the degree altogether because these jobs are very hard to get no matter where you do your grad work (OK, maybe Harvard and MIT excepted).

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If you want to argue that people on this board are condescending towards heterodox departments, I will concede the point and plead guilty myself. But for mid-low ranked Ph.D. programs in general, I don’t get that attitude at all.

 

If people are telling you that for the Econ Ph.D., it only makes sense if you can go to a top program, then they don’t know what they are talking about. Economics is one of the few fields where this not true. There are plenty of mid-low ranked programs that place their stars into research programs and almost all of their graduates into at least teaching/government/private sector jobs. If your attitude is research or bust, then you should avoid the degree altogether because these jobs are very hard to get no matter where you do your grad work (OK, maybe Harvard, and MIT excepted).

 

Yea, I basically agree. I have been doing this testmagic thing on and off now for over two years and I don't think that I have seen one post along the lines of, if you dont go to a top school, then you might as well not even bother; in fact, I would be quite surprised to see such a post on here. The people on this forum are generally supportive and will congratualate most people on every admission, all the way from MIT to the Northern South Eastern Florida State University of Kansas (Nebraska Campus). And it certainly isnt pointless to get your degree from a low-ranked....even my masters program is able to place some of its PhDs in small LACs and its PhD program is about dead last in rank in the U.S. Now I have seen posts saying that getting a heterodox degree is a waste of time, and unless you just have a desire to learn those methods, then I would agree (alot of this just has to do with poor job prospects).

 

The forum may seem daunting at first b/c there are so many people with incredible backgrounds who come on here, but I still think the board is welcoming to anyone who wants to attend some orthodox PhD program and if you search hard enough you will find all sorts of backgrounds and aspirations on this forum.

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To be fair, I generally appreciate the harsh dose of reality and the overachievement mentality of TestMagic. It makes motivates me to do the best I can while still keeping my head on the ground. It can just be a downer sometimes.
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I get annoyed when people say "so and so degree is not worth it unless you come get into one of the top schools". Guess what? This is pretty much true for each and every degree you can get. The value of a JD, MBA, etc., drops drastically as you go down the rung. Guess what? Not everyone is a genius or skilled enough to go to the best of the best. Contrary to what Test Magic forums might imply, this is completely OKAY! If you like economics, I say go for it. There is a reason why there are low-level econ programs just like there is a reason why there are community colleges. If they weren't worth it, they wouldn't exist. At least that's what the free market would dictate, right oh wise econ forum?

 

Great response---you're absolutly right----if there were no market for the lower tier schools they wouldnts exist. However, is that market for Americans or for international students? An American degree is worth everything anywhere else. But I will apply and if the U accepts me that will probably be where I go. I need to make the most economically desicion for myself right?

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I am responding to Tex as well...on test magic I have only seen downing on the heterodox. Its talking and meeting with some people at my university that are getting me down. I think because I am not an Econ undergrad they are giving me a hard time. Like I said I would like to be realistic---I doubt I will get into a top tier school. However, with my veterans preference I will get hired reguardless of the other candidates. This is something I am concerned about---because there is prejustice towards the Veteran Preference people in government employment---since we do not have to follow the same hiring practice (its a affirmative action for service related injured vets). With that said---the last thing I want is to get into the work place and have my co-workers not only think I am a bumb for being a prefered vet but also an inferior university degree.
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on test magic I have only seen downing on the heterodox.

 

While most of the programs people refer to as "heterodox" aren't ranked very highly to start with, IMHO it's true that a degree from one of these programs results in an extra hurdle to overcome beyond the rank of the program. I doubt this is much an issue for a "teaching job", but to place into a research school I suspect that you would at the very least need to think carefully about how you will market yourself. For example, let's say your fields are History of Thought and Marxian Theory--how much demand is there for someone to cover those areas at top programs, regardless of how good you are?

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I am surprised to see how many posts have been made on this thread. I may not have been clear in my earlier posts. In response to some thoughtful critiques from batmanisafatman I would like to make two points.

 

(1) I feel, if you are not interested in Marxian economics, then Utah is not for you and is a waste of time. I assumed when I made my comment about it being a waste this would be clear, but I was wrong. If you are into Marxian economics, it is not a waste.

 

(2) We all have limited time and can’t research every possible idea to the fullest extent before making a decision. This is the point I was making about having exposed myself to Marxian ideas. I am not an expert and never will be. If I gave the impression that I am some kind of expert on Marx I apologize. I am interested to learn about Marxian thought (like many other things) but have chosen not to spend my time pursuing this extensively. I simply find other schools of thought more satisfying and useful.

 

batmanisafatman seems to think the core courses at Utah are “pretty generic” but he may have forgotten to check what is being taught in the courses before claiming this. Here is the description of the two semester required core course sequence on political economy (got it here).

 

 

7003 Political Economy and Critique I (3)

A survey of the writings of Karl Marx and the foundations of Marxian economics.

 

7004 Political Economy and Critique II (3)

Theories and issues in modern Marxian economics.

 

 

I agree with batmanisafatman that misinformation is a problem and I did not want anyone to be misinformed about this. I also agree with batmanisafatman that the professors are likely to allow you to take your own direction with the thesis. They will also not try to "force" you to believe anything. However, own experience with my masters coursework has been that economics (especially macro) is far more ideological than we economists would like to believe and can be taught in starkly different ways, depending on the prof. Professorw will teach from their own perspecitve and it will be harder for you if you don't buy in to it.

 

I really don't think my basic point is unfair:

Utah is a waste of time if you are not interested in Marxian economics.

My point has nothing to do with rankings.

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  • 5 years later...
Heh, it's kinda funny that they include Bayesian econometrics in with the other things.

 

There's an econometrician there who use to be at Rutgers that does Bayesian work and the department offers a special topic course in the field. I believe his name is Fowles and I've read a paper by him in the American economic Review. Also I've been to a talk by one of their job market PhDs and his model was a Bayesian one, so I am sure it's not a fluke that they put that there. Not many schools offer this.

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While most of the programs people refer to as "heterodox" aren't ranked very highly to start with, IMHO it's true that a degree from one of these programs results in an extra hurdle to overcome beyond the rank of the program. I doubt this is much an issue for a "teaching job", but to place into a research school I suspect that you would at the very least need to think carefully about how you will market yourself. For example, let's say your fields are History of Thought and Marxian Theory--how much demand is there for someone to cover those areas at top programs, regardless of how good you are?

 

utah does better in ranking than other heterodox schools. They are 74th in a 2009 paper that ranked departments by research output. This is likely due to the fact that the department is mixed. There are some heterodox folks and there are some more mainstream economists there.

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I don't doubt that such programs have value. Several economics professors I know at my undergrad institution got their PhDs from schools well outside the top-50 and yet have solid research careers. However, because universities are heavily subsidized, there are certainly more economics PhD programs than would exist in a free market.

It really all depend what you want to do. If you want to be doing research at a big institution then you should go to the top. However, all that falls out of the windoe if you publish before you go out to the market. If you do that, then you will be ahead of the game no matter what school. The issue is that it is difficult to publish unless you've already got some experience, like writing a dissertation. Utah gives good teaching opportunity and their placement seems to be at liberal arts colleges, and mid level research universities. So it all boils down to what kind of job you want after PhD.

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Well I have Vet Preference when it comes to federal jobs. I would like to work in a social research position---i.e. govt programs like TANF, WIC, Education etc.

This is from a post 5 years ago, but for posterity's sake, Veterans' preference generally applies to jobs at lower pay grades than you'd be eligible for with a doctorate.

 

http://www.va.gov/OBO/ICS/JobItems/Veterans_Preference.pdf

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