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A PhD is not worth it!


rsaylors
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A PhD is not worth it! The 700GMAT you use for PhD entrance could have you in a higher ranked MBA and making more in the next 10 years than you will be making ever as a prof... With only the need for a 2year MBA. Even if you want a comfortable retirement-job: teaching 5 classes with an MBA + online pays about the same as a full prof and requires less work and much less time.

 

It only makes sense to do a PhD if you want to conduct research.

Edited by rsaylors
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If you are able to get into a decent phD program with 700 GMAT, then you deserve congratulations. I think it is more like 750+ required to get admission into a decent PhD program.

 

750+ for a decent program? either your definition of decent is 'the best program one can go to' or there are some programs on the moon which have an average accepted gmat score of 795, thus making the decent programs on earth less than decent overall.

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If you are able to get into a decent phD program with 700 GMAT, then you deserve congratulations. I think it is more like 750+ required to get admission into a decent PhD program.

 

It depends on the field, GMAT scores are certainly higher in some than in others.

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What in the world is your definition of "decent" traderjoe? There are plenty of schools that admit below 750.

 

Rsaylors, of course a phd is for research. (Albeit I might point out that top mba schools might want higher GMAT scores than 700) Are you reconsidering a phd or merely stating a fundamental belief?

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I don't think rsaylors is reconsidering a phd. I think he/she is just warning us of the importance the decision we are making. Am i right rsaylors?

Exactly!

 

I'm just saying that it's fiscally and professionally irrational to do a Ph.D. unless:

you want to conduct research.
Edited by rsaylors
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Have to agree with rsaylors on this one.

 

Shoot, I could easily make more money in business (and have), but the long-term satisfaction in the discovery and dissemination of new knowledge is inherently attractive at a level where financial compensation (above a certain standard of living) becomes irrelevant (I don't need a yacht! - although it'd be nice, of course) :).

 

In accounting, the GMAT average is 750 only for Chicago and Wharton.

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I don't know why USA?? UK is better , Even Switzerland is better in my view point, and you can make your future there !!

No GMAT, no Application deadlines, no Complicated rules, no interviews.

 

it is easier and the same level of proficiency, The latest Ranking says the best is Cambridge not Harvard, and Stanford is 6 .

 

that is my look to the life

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There are other non-monetary sources of utility a career in academia offers aside from just research. Quality of life, tenure, etc...

As I tried to address in my OP:

 

You will work much less if you use your 700gmat MBA and levy it into a position as a lecturer: You will work less and make about the same if you add to that an online-teaching position or two. With this setup you can work 40ish hours a week and make 100k ish; and do so in a matter of 2 years instead of 12.

 

Tenure... well, tenure is both elusive and pointless without research. Without it being useful to peruse interesting research, tenure offers no more job security than simply being a half-way decent lecturer at a university in a union state; That is to say, if you are doing your job then there's no good reason to fire you.

 

Little known fact: many universities have contracts where by they can fire a tenured professor if they have a 'fiscal emergency'; And who do you think that they'll cut first, the guy teaching 5 classes for 60k or the guy teaching 2 classes for 100k?

 

 

your etc... though... I must agree with one thing:

 

It includes prestige; which is part of why there is a disconnect between average GMAT and research productivity at many universities.

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Assistant Prof in Finance in Top 20 school: $180 K - $220 K for 9 months + $40 K for summer support. Teaching load is 1-2 sections per semester. After tenure, additional compensation for Executive MBA teaching and consulting work.

Lecturer in Finance: $70 K per nine months. Teaching load is 4 sections per semester.

Tenured prof cannot be fired unless the university goes into insolvency. When the university has to cut the budget, they will fire the lecturers and hire adjuncts at very cheap rates. Some universities make the PhD students teach and pay them $15 K per year stipend.

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Some universities make the PhD students teach and pay them $15 K per year stipend.
good point; but there is an ever rising demand for lecturers; so geographical stability is the benefit of tenure... but then you have even worse stability when it comes to being a non-tenured professor at a top20.

 

Assistant Prof in Finance in Top 20 school: $180 K - $220 K for 9 months + $40 K for summer support.
Once you know your courses it takes like 20 hours a week to run 4 classes; No one with a hope of getting tenure at a top 20 is going to work less than 60 hours a week; so just focusing on teaching you would still make at or the same being a lecturer, given a slightly lower work load.

 

Similar levels of work in the private sector from the even better university you can get into with your GMAT in MBA will offer even greater disparities.

 

I will concede that when you are a top10 uni shoe-in then there is likely little marginal benefit to be seen in going to a "better" university for MBA, thus hurting support for my argument: in that case compensation and effort start to converge with the income of simply teaching.

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I don't know why USA?? UK is better , Even Switzerland is better in my view point, and you can make your future there !!

No GMAT, no Application deadlines, no Complicated rules, no interviews.

 

it is easier and the same level of proficiency, The latest Ranking says the best is Cambridge not Harvard, and Stanford is 6 .

 

that is my look to the life

 

Wrong thread Amgad. I think you meant to post here:

http://www.www.urch.com/forums/phd-business/128646-i-have-acceptance-phd-ebs.html

 

The anti-US rhetoric is intriguing, but I'm not certain it is proving fruitful in your pursuit of information-gathering related to your PhD acceptance to EBS...just a thought.

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Assistant Prof in Finance in Top 20 school: $180 K - $220 K for 9 months + $40 K for summer support. Teaching load is 1-2 sections per semester. After tenure, additional compensation for Executive MBA teaching and consulting work.

Lecturer in Finance: $70 K per nine months. Teaching load is 4 sections per semester.

Tenured prof cannot be fired unless the university goes into insolvency. When the university has to cut the budget, they will fire the lecturers and hire adjuncts at very cheap rates. Some universities make the PhD students teach and pay them $15 K per year stipend.

 

My thoughts (and they're just that, btw): Someone with an MBA from Wharton going into PE would rightly expect to have a net worth exceeding $10M along with an annual salary of around $1.5M within 10 years of graduation. A Stanford MBA in VC would closely track those numbers.

 

I know better than to try and prove through examples, but the point is that (especially with an MBA from a top-10 school) it's relatively easy to make enough money that one wouldn't have to actually "work." Then you could have all the benefits of a tenured professorship without teaching (or dealing with politics or any other "loads"). If you wanted to reap the rewards of being on campus and interacting with a bright and interesting student body, you could take a guest lecturer slot at a top-tier university and/or become a significant donor...which buys you a heck of a lot.

 

The thing one thing I am able to pinpoint that someone would have more than a little difficulty replicating is the knowledge and ability to perform original research (and maybe it's possible to get around even this barrier...I just don't know).

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I am puzzled by this comparison (top MBA vs PhD) - I think the utility values are different for people going to a top MBA programme (usually with an objective to become a pro top quality manager) and people going to an academic programme such as PhD (with an objective to become a pro researcher/professor). I have a top MBA ( nonUS though so it may not count here he-he) and, 8 years later, I started reserching the academic programmes such as PhD and talking to academics. I've spent enought time in my MBA programme and out of it (in business) to see the difference in 'types' of people which are likely to be found in business and academia. With a very small exception, these are very different. I wouldn't try to compare their payoffs because they have totally different utility curves and - let's face it - capabilities and potential to make it in either business or academia.
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A PhD is not worth it! The 700GMAT you use for PhD entrance could have you in a higher ranked MBA and making more in the next 10 years than you will be making ever as a prof...

 

Excuse me, but high GMAT score means much less for an MBA admission than it seems to mean for a PhD programme. 700 (or even 740) GMAT will not guarantee you admission to a top MBA programme simply because they focus mainly on your leadership potential, not your verbal and quant abilities which only should be sufficient to get you through the MBA classes which are not that rigourous anyway). I know because I am alumni-interviewer for an MBA programme and I understand very well the admission criteria.

 

that just adds to my point that you cannot compare top MBA and PhD payoffs because of different objectives of the programmes and differend kinds of profiles involved.

 

For a lower tier B-school, though, I cannot comment. When I was choosing my MBA programme 9 years ago, the matra was 'it is only worth the money if it is top MBA programme'.

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high GMAT score means much less for an MBA admission
According to my sample of 52 universities tthe average GMAT for an MBA program is 92 points lower than a PhD; Which is the difference between being in the 68th percentile and the 90th percentile; though there may be different things that the two programs look for (work experience for example) your own post supports my argument that you are capable of getting into a higher end MBA program with lower GMAT scores.

 

You make a good point, but let me offer this:

 

The differing preferences in Ph.D. profile are just as likely to be correlated with my single rational criteria for perusing a Ph.D. as the MBA criteria are to be correlated with someone that thinks they would like to lecture business courses or work in industry.

I wouldn't try to compare their payoffs because they have totally different utility curves and - let's face it - capabilities and potential to make it in either business or academia.
No doubt, you only strengthened my argument: The only good reason to pursue a Ph.D. is because you are the kind of person that wants to conduct research.

 

it is only worth the money if it is top MBA programme
It depends on what a top program means to you; Top 10? Top 50? Top 100 world? Top 23 in the US? Edited by rsaylors
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I don't disagree with your conclusion, rsaylors, I disagreed with your reasoning ;)

Anyways, let's agree to disagree. i always enjoy reading your existentialists posts and pls keep them coming

 

Can you explain the last comment "Every program is a top program"? I am not sure what you mean here.

 

btw I have a close friend who was offered a place at LBS with 570 GMAT. This is just one case, I know, not the pattern, but I wanted to make a point )))

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Every program can find some criteria by which to argue that they are in the top x%.

 

Every program, but one, can honestly say it is "among" the top programs. It is a marketing trick, there is no solid definition of top.

 

Every program is the most challenging and thought provoking and well matched program there is... For some people.

 

For all of these reasions every program is a top program.

 

(thanks for the encouragement and insight)

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My thoughts (and they're just that, btw): Someone with an MBA from Wharton going into PE would rightly expect to have a net worth exceeding $10M along with an annual salary of around $1.5M within 10 years of graduation. A Stanford MBA in VC would closely track those numbers.

 

My thoughts on your thoughts: I think you have a very skewed view of possibilities with a MBA. Have you looked at the average salaries of MBAs going out of both of these schools? Also you have to consider the experience necessary to actually get a job in VC, which only a MBA from a top school won't get you. All in all, I think you romanticizing MBAs from top unis (I'd say Ivy but I don't think Wharton is one ..).

 

On the general subject, it becomes quite evident that doing a PhD is a strange decision when Marge Simpson says to her son about grad students: "Dont' make fun of them Bart, they just made bad life choices". Obviously, going into a PhD is more of a life orientation rather than a career orientation, and trying to monetarily quantify this is, imo, the wrong way to look at it. That being said I understand and support the point you were making rstaylor, interesting as always.

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You have to keep in mind that the MBAs lose their jobs on Wall Street after two bad quarters. Even MBB has an up-or-out policy where they do not allow the MBAs to stagnate.

On the other hand, there are tenured profs who haven't published anything significant in years. Their job is absolutely secure. In the state universities, the Deans have to literally request them to retire at age 75. In the private universities they have a retirement age of 65. But technically, in the state universities, they can continue teaching and holding on to their positions until age 90 and beyond if they really want to do that.

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My thoughts on your thoughts: I think you have a very skewed view of possibilities with a MBA. Have you looked at the average salaries of MBAs going out of both of these schools? Also you have to consider the experience necessary to actually get a job in VC, which only a MBA from a top school won't get you. All in all, I think you romanticizing MBAs from top unis (I'd say Ivy but I don't think Wharton is one ..).

 

Mmmm...not really. To respond, what I'm trying to do is create comparable data sets. Admittedly I could just as easily compare MBAs to orthopedic surgeons… assuming you view the assistant professorship as a residency, the training time and intensity is about the same. That aside…

Here are the assumptions and thought process:

1. Assume the MBA student is one of the top 5 in their class (That’s about where they would have to rank to be viewed competitively in admissions to the same school’s PhD program.).

2. Assume a 60-80 hour work-week for the 3 years of the dissertation and 7 years until tenure (also assume the MBA and Pre-Quals are equal - from the sunk cost perspective only, mind you).

3. Now, we have two people of equal motivation and drive competing with equivalently intelligent and motivated individuals in their respective markets.

4. Pick an arbitrary school: I’ll continue to say Wharton as they’re generally acknowledged to be the top finance program in the world (along with Chicago)...this especially holds true for their MBAs.

 

Compare the average net worth of the top 10 earners from any top 20 MBA program a decade out from their MBA with the average salary of that same program's PhD graduates and, just a guess here, I'll bet the MBA comes out ahead every single time :).

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