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A PhD is not worth it!


rsaylors

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You have to keep in mind that the MBAs lose their jobs on Wall Street after two bad quarters. Even MBB has an up-or-out policy where they do not allow the MBAs to stagnate.

On the other hand, there are tenured profs who haven't published anything significant in years. Their job is absolutely secure. In the state universities, the Deans have to literally request them to retire at age 75. In the private universities they have a retirement age of 65. But technically, in the state universities, they can continue teaching and holding on to their positions until age 90 and beyond if they really want to do that.

 

Traderjoe,

 

I agree with part of your assertion: The MBBs are the same as the IBs...drive revenue or die. Schools are no different...publish or perish.

 

Once you are tenured and/or once you make partner, you have a "book" on which you can stand for quite a while...assuming that's what someone would want. Personally, resting on my laurels just doesn't compute.

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My thoughts on your thoughts: I think you have a very skewed view of possibilities with a MBA. Have you looked at the average salaries of MBAs going out of both of these schools? Also you have to consider the experience necessary to actually get a job in VC, which only a MBA from a top school won't get you. All in all, I think you romanticizing MBAs from top unis (I'd say Ivy but I don't think Wharton is one ..).

 

On the general subject, it becomes quite evident that doing a PhD is a strange decision when Marge Simpson says to her son about grad students: "Dont' make fun of them Bart, they just made bad life choices". Obviously, going into a PhD is more of a life orientation rather than a career orientation, and trying to monetarily quantify this is, imo, the wrong way to look at it. That being said I understand and support the point you were making rstaylor, interesting as always.

 

Stagename,

 

Just a little more (OK - so what happened here is that I got to writing in two different areas and I'm too lazy to combine them...just stick with me here, ok?)

 

As I state above, I'm not romanticizing but I'm also not really comparing the average MBA student (or even ones below the top decile of their class).

 

Last I checked, Penn is a member of the Ivy League. Wharton was the first collegiate business school in the world while Chicago (Booth) was the first to offer a PhD in business.

 

I completely agree with your second paragraph. I wasn't originally attempting to quantify, just to lend some weight to the discussion underway in this thread. I think you summed it up much better than my original attempt...basically by saying that the comparison is a useless one from the start :). Thank you and have a great evening.

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From what I've heard, MBA school is not very intellectually stimulating. On that note, I think you must factor in the type of person, on average, who enrolls in an MBA vs PhD. I would say that someone who gains admission into a top MBA program is there to get through the classes and use the network of students, alumni, and recruiting to return to the private sector. A person who gains admission into a top PhD program is there to get through classes, research, and the dissertation all in hopes of landing an assistant professorship at an equal or lesser school for probably less money than the top MBA's first job out of school. Again I am generalizing.

 

So why pursue the PhD rather than the MBA if it takes 2.5 times longer and at best equal (first job out of school) pay?

 

Speaking for myself, I would say I am entertaining the idea of pursuing a PhD because I enjoy academia. It would be a dream to actually get paid for publishing stuff I'm passionate about. As of now, it would be much more fulfilling to research, publish, and get paid to learn as opposed to being a leader in business and make much more money. There is a little thing called the ego that would enjoy having the PhD after it's name. I'm sure it is safe to conclude that ego may be a huge part, along with said pursuit of knowledge and the almighty truth :P, of many academicians desire to pursue a PhD and a career in academia.

 

As taxPhD remarked on my ? thread, I may not be as exposed to academic research as I should in order to add substance to this question but I have tried anyway. So please excuse my naiveté.

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It would be a dream to actually get paid for publishing stuff I'm passionate about.
Yep :-) This is the only good reason I can see for it to :-)

There is a little thing called the ego that would enjoy having the PhD after it's name.
Through the course of this thread I have realized that the other logical motivation (if you can call it that) is ego; I personally have such a high self efficacy I doubt that Ph.D. would improve my self-assessment :-)

 

I think you summed up what we've learned in a very personal way +1 for helpful.

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The difference is that I enjoy research, I enjoy being (mostly) self-directed, and I enjoy working until 2am and getting to sleep until 9am.

 

In industry, I did not enjoy the work, did not enjoy traveling 50 weeks per year, and didn't enjoy waking up at 5:30 am.

 

I can be just as happy on $200ish as I could (eventually) on $500ish in industry, given these other lifestyle perks. My blood pressure and weight have dropped significantly since I left industry four years ago as well.

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Its really a matter of choice and individual preferences, and when individual tastes are concerned each of us have a different utility for the same thing. However, it is important to be cognizant of all the possbile outcomes before one decides on any one of the options i.e. to do or not to do a PhD.
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These threads comparing how much money MBAs make vs. PhDs are so monotonous. There are many PhDs working in academia who make far more than the average MBA; there are also many MBAs working in industry who make far more than the average PhD. The average, of course, is weighted toward the MBA (particularly when it comes to Finance). But these conversations all end up sounding like an argument about "where can I make the most money for the least amount of effort"--and in my experience, the world rarely rewards those type of people with fabulous earnings, regardless their degree OR the type of work they do. If that factor really carries much weight in the decision process, go do something else; you'll probably be average at best, and won't command the high salaries that people are throwing around in here (whether you have an MBA or a PhD).
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But these conversations all end up sounding like an argument about "where can I make the most money for the least amount of effort"
You must be rather old-hat to feel that the topic is monotonous; I was comparing the income and lifestyle of people working 60+ hours a week, hardly someone trying to max-min money/free time.

 

And the comparison wasn't industry, but what you can make if what you want to do is teach instead of research.

 

That said: I can certainly see how this topic must have been explored thoroughly in the past and why it may all just sound like the same conversation at some point (but couldn't the same be said for the whole Ph.D./admissions thing?)

 

Also; i read a bit of your blog and found it both interesting and insightful.

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You must be rather old-hat to feel that the topic is monotonous; I was comparing the income and lifestyle of people working 60+ hours a week, hardly someone trying to max-min money/free time.

 

Not old hat--and re-reading my post, it probably came across pretty harsh. Didn't intend it to be; my apologies for any offense! I'm actually not even in a program--just working the long plan to apply later this year! But I've done obsessive research for the last 2 years, and this stuff comes up a lot on various boards.

 

That said, on the whole, I'd say that any high level leadership role in industry is going to demand a good 60+ hours per week; the time commitment required to be excellent in academia isn't all that different from the time commitment required to be excellent in industry, so I hope you see where I'm coming from when I hear people trying to make these "income/hours" calculations when determining whether a PhD is for them. To me, if that really enters the conversation, there are probably better places for you in the world.

 

And the comparison wasn't industry, but what you can make if what you want to do is teach instead of research.

 

Again, apologies if I misinterpreted. That's certainly a more unique conversation!

 

Also; i read a bit of your blog and found it both interesting and insightful.

 

Thanks; not very up-to-date, but helps keep me on point a little (and helps organize the journey to PhD admissions).

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  • 1 month later...

Many of the folks on this board are, I'm sure, pretty preoccupied right now, but a friend sent me this link this weekend that, I think, speaks to some of the content in this thread. Collegiate Times has a salary database for a number of schools (mostly state schools) that are required to report individual salaries based on the Freedom of Information Act. Some eye-opening salaries here...

 

Collegiate Times Salary Database

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Many of the folks on this board are, I'm sure, pretty preoccupied right now, but a friend sent me this link this weekend that, I think, speaks to some of the content in this thread. Collegiate Times has a salary database for a number of schools (mostly state schools) that are required to report individual salaries based on the Freedom of Information Act. Some eye-opening salaries here...

 

Collegiate Times Salary Database

 

Good find!

 

We Californians have been lucky enough to have the UC and CSU salaries for a while, too

 

State Worker Salary Search - sacbee.com

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I read this whole thread and have some questions. I am 22, enrolled in the CEMS double Master's in Management program (ranked #2 in the world by Financial Times) at Stockholm School of Economics with semesters at ESADE Business School and Rotterdam School of Management: some of the very best schools in Europe. I would definitely prefer something intellectually stimulating (which is why I am considering a PhD) but I don't want to be a broke hippie either. What exactly would my career prospects be like? How much can you start to earn, on average, after a PhD?

 

My plan is to focus on developing countries, investigate issues related to gender, culture, etc. and write about the implication of these issues for management; this would be both intellectually stimulating AND useful expertise for the future.

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If B-school faculties and PhDs complain, then people from any other doctoral programs are just dead. We are the most well treated people in the entire world of higher education.

 

It's true. Anyone who thinks BSchool PhD students are treated badly should do a tour of duty in a math/physics/cs PhD program.

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It's true. Anyone who thinks BSchool PhD students are treated badly should do a tour of duty in a math/physics/cs PhD program.

 

...or compare the average salaries of B-School professors with those of math/physics professors--or even worse, humanities professors.

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Chemistry Blog » Blog Archive » Something Deeply Wrong With Chemistry

 

See above link. B-school PhD is a walk in the park compared to other rackets.

 

from the post

Also, if you haven’t noticed the number of people working on weekends and nights in the lab is the worst I’ve seen in my 17 years. The frequency of vacation, time taken off and other non-lab activities is bordering on the ridiculous. In case you forgot, the standard amount of time you are supposed to take is 2 weeks a year total, including Christmas. If there isn’t a substantial improvement in the next few months, I’ll have to think of some draconian measures to “motivate” you. I also want to say that the average lab citizenship and community spirit of keeping the lab in functioning order is at an all-time low. Few people seem to care about fixing broken equipment and making sure things in the lab run smoothly. If the lab were extremely productive and everyone was totally focused on their work, I might understand the slovenliness but productivity is abysmal and if we continue along this path we will surely reach mediocrity in no time.

 

As the OB literature shows, the best way to encourage organizational citizenship behaviors is the following mantra:

"The beatings will continue until the moral improves!"

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Just to provide the optimistic view of a soon-to-be Finance PhD student

 

I am excited about the Finance PhD ahead of me. As I see it, for those who made it into a top10 finance program, there is a nontrivial chance to get a job in a top10 school, and a significant chance of getting a job at a top20 school. In lot of other disciplines, it has to be a miracle for you to find a top10 academic job even if you graduate from Harvard or MIT. Further, the financial crisis will be over by the time I graduate, so if I realize I am not a research guy, it will be easy to find a high paying job on the wall street. I will start at the same rank as my undergrad friends who by then is doing their MBA at top programs like Stanford and Wharton, and I don't lose much. Maybe I will be TAing their class, but the TA requirement is very low. A Wharton/Kellogg/NYU PhD will give me the prestige that a top MBA cannot.

 

I get paid 30k a year for doing nothing in the first year and several hours a week of RAing the following years, which I will do anyways to get to know faculty and work with them. I get to choose who I work with, or at least its a mutual choice. So by "working", I am really doing something I enjoy. It even give the possibility of coauthoring if I have alot ideas to contribute. With this stipend, I can go to restaurants and buy good food frequently. My friends are working their ***-off with excel spreadsheet on Wall Street for the first three year (something I am sure they don't enjoy), and they have to give a lot of that earning back in their fourth and fifth year to get an expensive MBA. So even in monetary terms, I am not at a strong disadvantage over the next five years.

 

Engineering guys usually have to work on industry projects they don't like but have to do anyway because those are where their funding come from. I don't have to go to labs and is free to research on stuff that interests ME. It is hard to finish in 4 years, but I will likely finish in five years, which is shorter than the time humanities PhDs spend in their program. Also, I don't have to struggle with a low-quality life as a post-doc once I graduate.

 

Once I become a faculty at, say a top15 school, which is my goal, I will make 1.5 times as much as engineering and econ faculties, and 2 times as much as social sci and humanities faculties. Some hedge fund may contact me and try to hire me, but if I feel like I can do research, I will probably decline the offer and climb the academic ladder. As junior faculty in Finance, I don't have to spend significant hours to chase around and hunting the government or department heads of big companies for funding like the engineering guys have to do. I just do my research.

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