kevin1297 Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 (edited) Hi, I am currently a sophomore studying at Occidental College, a top 40 liberal arts college, in California. I am interested in getting a PhD in Econ, and have heard that above a certain floor, your GPA doesn't matter. Is that true, and if so, what is it for different universities? Below are my stats: Major: Diplomacy and World Affairs and Economics, minor in Mathematics GPA: 3.43 (Doesn’t include grades in courses currently taking) GPA (Fall Semester, Freshman): 3.0 ((French 201 (C+) screwed it up)) GPA (Spring Semester, Freshman): 3.85 GPA (Fall Semester, Sophomore): 3.43 GPA (Economics): 3.42 Principles of Econ I: A- Principles of Econ II: A- Intermediate Microeconomic Theory: A (so far) Intermediate Macroeconomic Theory: B+ Economic Development: A- Calculus I: B- GPA (Mathematics): 3.2 Calculus I: B- Calculus II: A- (so far) Statistics: A- Planned Courses (Economics): Game Theory Applied Econometrics (Fall 2015) International Economics Senior Seminar (Honors) Planned Courses (Mathematics): Multivariable Calculus (Fall 2015) Discrete Mathematics (Prereq for real analysis) (Fall 2015) Linear Algebra Real Analysis Probability Mathematical Statistics Planned Courses (Computer Science): Intro to C++ (Fall 2015) Intro to Java I (Fall 2015) Intro to Java II and Intro to Computer Science Research Experience (Planned): Honors Comps in Economics Internship at Economic Policy Research Institute (South African think-tank) over Summer 2015 Summer Research on Campus Research with Polish Economics Professor (my mom knows the dean of a top twenty business school in Europe that I can do research with) GRE: not taken Target Schools: Top 30 – 50 University of Washington Georgetown George Washington University University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill Boston University University of California – Santa Barbara Rice University Reach Schools: University of California – Los Angeles London School of Economics Brown University Columbia University University of Michigan – Ann Arbor New York University Edited April 5, 2015 by kevin1297 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blanket Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Test scores in non-math, non-econ courses are much less important than your letters of recommendation, mathematics grades, economics grades, GRE results, research experience, courses taken, and research fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin1297 Posted April 5, 2015 Author Share Posted April 5, 2015 Test scores in non-math, non-econ courses are much less important than your letters of recommendation, mathematics grades, economics grades, GRE results, research experience, courses taken, and research fit. I know, I'm just asking what's considered a competitive GPA for top 30 - top 50 programs in math and econ courses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chateauheart Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Those grades currently are not competitive for a top 50 or even top 70 econ program. Your future courses, however, are far more important for doctoral admissions, and a >3.8 average in the next few semesters may help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Econhead Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Those grades currently are not competitive for a top 50 or even top 70 econ program. Your future courses, however, are far more important for doctoral admissions, and a >3.8 average in the next few semesters may help. I'm not disagreeing with this. OP is at occidental - I seem to recall a past user indicating that you don't find out what grade you've earned until after the semester ends. It's a "holistic" grading approach. If this is true, would this lower the GPA someone from Occidental would need to be competitive (not incredibly, but some margin)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExclamationMarx Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 There is a wealth of information on here regarding profile results. The best way to answer your question is to look at how other applicants have faired. That being said, your GPA does matter beyond whatever floor a program imposes. To take the obvious example, a student with a 3.6 will be disadvantaged compared to a student with a 3.9+, especially if the difference in grades is in math and economics classes. If you're planning on applying to PhD programs directly out of undergrad your target schools should be your reach schools, and even then they'll likely only be a possibility if you have mostly A's or A-'s in your remaining classes. A B- and a couple A-'s in the early calculus and statistics classes do not send a strong signal, so you need to overcome this as much as possible, especially as even at your target schools most successful applicants will have much higher GPA's than you currently have. Just take a look at the results on this forum. Fortunately, it looks like you're already thinking about this early on as an undergrad, which means you still have a chance to turn it around and improve your profile enough to get into those target schools, or even a reach school if you do exceptionally well across the board with your future grades, research, GRE scores, letters of recommendation, applications writing, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin1297 Posted April 5, 2015 Author Share Posted April 5, 2015 I'm not disagreeing with this. OP is at occidental - I seem to recall a past user indicating that you don't find out what grade you've earned until after the semester ends. It's a "holistic" grading approach. If this is true, would this lower the GPA someone from Occidental would need to be competitive (not incredibly, but some margin)? That's a good question, I surely hope so, because Oxy is known to be a pretty hard school. All of the exams that I have taken have been essay answer, free response style, not multiple choice, which makes it harder than it otherwise would be, if I would have gone to a big state school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin1297 Posted April 5, 2015 Author Share Posted April 5, 2015 There is a wealth of information on here regarding profile results. The best way to answer your question is to look at how other applicants have faired. That being said, your GPA does matter beyond whatever floor a program imposes. To take the obvious example, a student with a 3.6 will be disadvantaged compared to a student with a 3.9+, especially if the difference in grades is in math and economics classes. If you're planning on applying to PhD programs directly out of undergrad your target schools should be your reach schools, and even then they'll likely only be a possibility if you have mostly A's or A-'s in your remaining classes. A B- and a couple A-'s in the early calculus and statistics classes do not send a strong signal, so you need to overcome this as much as possible, especially as even at your target schools most successful applicants will have much higher GPA's than you currently have. Just take a look at the results on this forum. Fortunately, it looks like you're already thinking about this early on as an undergrad, which means you still have a chance to turn it around and improve your profile enough to get into those target schools, or even a reach school if you do exceptionally well across the board with your future grades, research, GRE scores, letters of recommendation, applications writing, etc. What if I work for two years at a central bank or as an RA for a well-known professor? Would it be easier to get in then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowDoIUserName Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 What if I work for two years at a central bank or as an RA for a well-known professor? Would it be easier to get in then? Obviously yes. But they won't make your transcript disappear. Your point about a "bar" is partially mistaken. It's not that it's merely a sufficiency threshold; it's simply a matter of declining marginal return. That being said, the competition is such that the top ten schools require near perfection these days. A 3.4 will be trouble if you were to apply with it later, and would require exceptional letters and/or experience. A B- in calc 1 is troubling. However, the adcom will look at your transcript, and they know that 18 year olds sometimes struggle with the transition / mature as they age. If you can show improvement over time from that freshman semester 3.0 both overall and in math, they will notice. So, in short, do well from here on out and it's able to be overcome. Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it too much at the moment because your goal should be, for the next year or so, pretty simple: do well in your classes. If you were to get all A- and As in those econ and math courses, you'd be in fine shape for top 50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sulebrahim Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 (edited) Another thing I'll add is that there are a few people in the profiles and results section who had 3.3ish GPA but made it to some of the schools on your list. Part of that was research experiences and LORs. Your grades are already on a upward trend, and from experience, when you realize graduate school is in the works, the grades get better because you finally have extra motivation. So keep doing what you are doing, try to do the research you plan on doing and a year from now, maybe you'll be in better shape. Also, since the econ and math grades are what matters, if you run into a semester with a heavy course load and are stressed for time, you might want to spend more time on econ and math courses. Edited April 6, 2015 by sulebrahim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExclamationMarx Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 What if I work for two years at a central bank or as an RA for a well-known professor? Would it be easier to get in then? Sure. But you should know that most of the students at your target schools have this or similar experience along with excellent grades. Like mentioned above, those with subpar grades who are accepted into the programs you're considering usually have something else that helps them stand out. But, this something else is probably more difficult to acquire than just getting good grades in your undergraduate math and economics classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin1297 Posted April 7, 2015 Author Share Posted April 7, 2015 Would adcoms look the same at A-s as A's? Is there a big difference between the two? Sure. But you should know that most of the students at your target schools have this or similar experience along with excellent grades. Like mentioned above, those with subpar grades who are accepted into the programs you're considering usually have something else that helps them stand out. But, this something else is probably more difficult to acquire than just getting good grades in your undergraduate math and economics classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flopson Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 i don't think this transcript is that bad. agree that you've pretty much gotta get straight A's your next 2 years if you wanna be competitive. "not competitive for a top 50 or even top 70 econ program" is exaggerated imo. i've seen similar profiles get into like, rice. acing analysis could make up for the bad calculus grades. so my take is basically the same as everyone else's: you're not out of the running yet, but if you want to still be competitive at the schools you're aiming for, you're gonna really have to kill it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExclamationMarx Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Would adcoms look the same at A-s as A's? Is there a big difference between the two? An A is definitely going to be viewed more favorably than an A-. It's difficult to say by how much. The main difference is that an A- shows that you've hit a ceiling in the class, at least grade-wise, whereas the performance of someone who received an A can range from just good enough to receive an A to so exceptional that an A was effortless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenzheng Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I transferred from Occidental to Columbia last year for better placement in Econ PhD program with 3.93 first-year grade. I have asked one professor at OXY before transfer and he told me that the grade cut-off line for a top PhD program should be around 3.7-3.8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowDoIUserName Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I transferred from Occidental to Columbia last year for better placement in Econ PhD program with 3.93 first-year grade. I have asked one professor at OXY before transfer and he told me that the grade cut-off line for a top PhD program should be around 3.7-3.8. Cutoff is an overly harsh word and this doesn't take into account known grading differences (i.e. everyone in the business of looking at transcripts knows Princeton GPAs are depressed by almost a third of a letter grade compared to, say, Harvard), but yes, that number is about right for top 10. A GPA in the 3.7-3.9 area will not help you compared to other applicants, but below that is a disability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin1297 Posted April 9, 2015 Author Share Posted April 9, 2015 Cutoff is an overly harsh word and this doesn't take into account known grading differences (i.e. everyone in the business of looking at transcripts knows Princeton GPAs are depressed by almost a third of a letter grade compared to, say, Harvard), but yes, that number is about right for top 10. A GPA in the 3.7-3.9 area will not help you compared to other applicants, but below that is a disability. What about for to 30 - top 50. It would be nice to go to an Ivy, but I don't really need to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowDoIUserName Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Easiest way to know is to look at old Profiles and Results threads. My gut says you want to aim to be in the 3.6-3.8 area to be competitive out of undergrad. Below that is a disability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin1297 Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 Easiest way to know is to look at old Profiles and Results threads. My gut says you want to aim to be in the 3.6-3.8 area to be competitive out of undergrad. Below that is a disability. Competitive for top 30 to top 50 schools? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morganzhang Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I transferred from Occidental to Columbia last year for better placement in Econ PhD program with 3.93 first-year grade. I have asked one professor at OXY before transfer and he told me that the grade cut-off line for a top PhD program should be around 3.7-3.8. I guess 3.7-3.8 is more like a bottom line(Although my accy professor told me the same thing)...Students in top program always got highest honor, especially for the people who pursue a phd degree directly(without a master degree). Also, I found economic phd programs really care about specific courses( econ/math). Nearly all of my accy professors told me that they only look at applicants' cumulative GPA. The committee should look at ranking...I just knew a girl in FuDan math department get 2.9/4.0 with a 12/60 ranking... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chateauheart Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 For undergrads from private US universities, yes, a 3.7-3.8 average in important courses is almost a bare minimum for a standard straight-out-of-undergrad applicant to top 30 programs. But the US grading scale is highly incomparable (top-heavy) with most countries. Most competent adcoms will focus on rankings of foreign students within their cohorts if they are provided. Also as a general rule (in response to OP's earlier question about working as an RA), the more additional signals you can provide (letters, research experience), the less grades will be weighed in your application, the reason being that all of these can be seen as part of the same signaling game. Ultimately, adcoms care far more about research potential than course performance. Your course performance is only crucial if it is the only part of your application that can predict future research potential, which unfortunately is the case for some undergrad applicants, but it will be heavily discounted if you have strong letters and research experience. That said, grades are almost never ignored completely and giving adcoms confidence that you can complete the first year of a PhD program is necessary for funding if not for admissions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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