UK applicant - how mathematical should the undergraduate degree be?

[worldrecordgaz]

Hello,

 

I’ve just finished my first year of a BSc Economics degree at Warwick University. I’ve been dead set on a PhD in Economics in the US for a while, and I’m aiming for the top 5. However, I don’t feel like my undergraduate degree is helping me. Although I can take a limited number of modules from the maths department, I don’t feel like I’m getting enough maths to be competitive at the top programs. I have the option to switch to BSc MMORSE (essentially maths, stats and economics), which allows for far more mathematical/statistical/econometric modules to be taken while not sacrificing much economic theory, although it would take me two years longer.

I’m struggling to come to a decision on whether to switch. I’ve performed well in my first year (estimated top 0.5-1%), but worry that even if hypothetically every other part of my application was exceptional, it would be undermined by my lack of maths. I realise how hard it is to get into a top 5 program especially with a non-top 10 undergrad, but I’m serious in my ambitions. Do you think the value placed by the top PhD programs on mathematical preparation justifies the obvious financial/social costs of switching?

 

Thank you!

Edited August 24, 2022 by worldrecordgaz

[remusane]

A lot of online advice is tailored to US students, whose economics classes are often not sufficiently mathematical. The UK system is different and the best undergrad econ programmes provide a good mathematical background, so this advice might not apply to you. I'm not familiar with Warwick's courses though – how much maths are you able to cover? I'd strongly recommend studying some proof-based maths, ideally including real analysis. You should also be very comfortable with calculus and linear algebra.

For top PhD programmes, you'll need to do a master's and probably also a predoc. I would focus on continuing to do very well in your studies, getting into a very good master's programme with a strong PhD placement record, and getting research experience through research assistance and/or a supervised thesis. Letters of recommendation that can speak to your research potential are key for PhD admissions. Based on what you've written, my guess is that switching to MMORSE won't help that much and probably isn't worth the additional years, but I'm not familiar with the programme.

With strong performance in a rigorous master's programme, your mathematical background won't be doubted. However, you might struggle to perform well in such a master's without sufficient mathematical preparation in your undergrad. Warwick is a very good university, so I would have thought you'd get that, but again, I'm not familiar with the programme. The maths I mentioned above will help you prepare for master's study.

 

[worldrecordgaz]

Thanks remusane, that’s helpful. The maths modules I’d be taking would be 6 of the following (all proof-based):

- multivariate calculus

- multivariate analysis

- advanced linear algebra

- stochastic processes

- metric spaces

- probability for mathematical statistics

- mathematical statistics

These are all modules aimed at second year undergraduates, with prerequisites that I would audit. If I did MMORSE I’d be doing all of these (and much more). The other thing I like about MMORSE is that it affords me more time to get RAships and do my own research, both of which seem important when applying. Do you see this as an advantage that makes switching worthwhile?

Thanks again!

[startz]

Being an RA is important, and especially for getting letters of recommendation. Participating in research is valuable because you learn a lot from the experience. Doing your "own research" is not very important. If you already knew how to do high quality research why would you need a PhD?

[worldrecordgaz]

15 minutes ago, startz said:

Being an RA is important, and especially for getting letters of recommendation. Participating in research is valuable because you learn a lot from the experience. Doing your "own research" is not very important. If you already knew how to do high quality research why would you need a PhD?

Good point - I suppose participating in research is what I meant by ‘doing my own research’.

[startz]

The math you've outlined will probably cover what you need. The exception might be if you want to be theorist, something not that common nowadays, in which case more math would be a good idea.

[remusane]

This mathematical background looks good.

I still think you'd probably be better off sticking with your current course and doing a predoc (full-time RA work) for two years. I imagine letters of recommendation that can speak to your research potential (obtained through RA work) will be much more important for your PhD admissions than additional maths.

You'll also very likely need a master's if you're aiming high, so you're potentially looking at several years of study and RA work before starting your PhD, especially if you switch to MMORSE.

[startz]

The issue of needing a master's degree is a little unclear (for American PhD programs). (Unlike the pre-doc, which while not necessary is clearly helpful.) Most international students do get a master's first (maybe 80%). For American's, it is relatively rare (maybe 20%). I suspect that the math you are talking about plus a really good pre-doc would be sufficient.

[remusane]

Is it really that unclear for top 5 programs (where @worldrecordgaz is hoping to place)? Anecdotally, I do know an international student at a top 5 program who got in without a master's, so I'm not claiming a master's is strictly necessary for international students, but this person ranked top of their cohort in a more competitive/higher ranking undergrad program than Warwick's. It seems to me very likely that @worldrecordgaz will need a master's for this kind of placement. Very happy to be corrected though.

 

[startz]

I wouldn't argue that against the idea that a master's is the norm for international students. I do think that research experience, as in a pre-doc, is more important. Letters of recommendation are really, really important.

It's also probably not a good idea for someone who has completed one year of university to be sure they know where they want to end up. Prepping for applying to top five programs, as the OP suggests, is very smart because it keeps options open. But decisions as to what to do after university may be easier to make next year.