PhD Business vs PhD Economics

[TooCentric]

I am currently a Joint Math & Econ major.

 

Would a PhD in Business or Economics be more beneficial to me if I plan on working in the private industry? What are the differences anyhow? Would the starting pay be very different? How about the ease of finding a job?

 

Also, I was wondering which schools in California offer a PhD in Business? So far, I know Stanford, UCLA, USC, UCI and UCSB. (Please correct me if I am wrong about any of these schools). How are there rankings?

 

Before, I was actually really set on becoming an Economics Professor, but then somewhere along the road, I figure, academia is extremely competitive and the pay is not as rewarding. I do have a passion for research, but not 80 hours a week for the rest of my life, that’s only for now. (haha).

 

I understand that in the time I take to attain a PhD others would have attained a lot more working experience. I am currently attending UCSD so when I graduate I would not be able to attain a very well paying job. And since MBA would require me to have working experience, so for the 3-4 years that I will be working, I will not be making much, then I would have to transition back into school mode and pay to go to MBA school. So in the end, I feel that it is more beneficial for me to attain higher education now.

 

Any advice? Help? Thank you!

[commodore]

It sounds like a business program would be better, given your interests. I'm curious as to why you think academia would bring 80 hours a week for the rest of your life. It seems to me like a profession with tenure and summers and holidays off is a lot more flexible and leisurely than most private sector jobs.

[mamoqilo]

I am currently a Joint Math & Econ major.

 

Also, I was wondering which schools in California offer a PhD in Business? So far, I know Stanford, UCLA, USC, UCI and UCSB. (Please correct me if I am wrong about any of these schools). How are there rankings?

 

 

Stanford, Berkeley ... if you have a strong profile

[mosfro]

I am currently attending UCSD so when I graduate I would not be able to attain a very well paying job. And since MBA would require me to have working experience, so for the 3-4 years that I will be working, I will not be making much, then I would have to transition back into school mode and pay to go to MBA school. So in the end, I feel that it is more beneficial for me to attain higher education now.

 

Any advice? Help? Thank you!

 

 

what do you consider a well paying job right out of undergrad? and why wouldnt you be able to get one coming from UCSD as a math/econ double major? Great combo for consulting work, actuarial work, and what industry calls "business intelligence" assuming you can program a little bit...

 

i mean, ya probably not 6 figs, but decent i would think none the less...

[YoungEconomist]

Would a PhD in Business or Economics be more beneficial to me if I plan on working in the private industry? What are the differences anyhow? Would the starting pay be very different? How about the ease of finding a job?

 

I imagine that depends on what you'd like to do in the private sector. For example, if you want to reach the highest ranks as a hedge fund manager, I imagine that a PhD in Finance would be more beneficial than Econ. However, if you want to be a top notch economic consultant, then maybe Econ would be slightly more beneficial. In both cases I am just speculating, but I think you get my point, that is, the more beneficial degree will depend on your private sector interests.

 

I'm not 100% sure about this, but it seems that a higher percentage of Business PhDs go into academia than do Econ PhDs. Many Econ PhDs discover during grad school that academia is not for them, and choose to go into the private sector, public sector, think tanks, international organizations, etc. Most people with an interest in a business degree and the private sector just go for an MBA. Likewise, I thought that upon receiving a PhD in Econ, the job market is a little more competitive than Business PhDs, and therefore maybe many Econ PhDs have to settle for a career outside of academia because they don't find an academic job that is attractive. Like I said before, I'm mainly just speculating here.

 

Before, I was actually really set on becoming an Economics Professor, but then somewhere along the road, I figure, academia is extremely competitive and the pay is not as rewarding. I do have a passion for research, but not 80 hours a week for the rest of my life, that’s only for now. (haha).

 

Yeah, academia is definitely competitive (which is one reason I always consider back up options after the PhD). I don't know if most tenured professors work 80 hours a week, and if they do it's mainly by choice. On the other hand though, being a professor does seem like a 24 - 7 job, and sometimes it sounds nice to be able to go to work and mainly forget about it during your time off (which is one potential benefit of the private sector depending on the individual). Another thing that can be somewhat unfortunate about academia is not having much of a choice where you live, which is a very important criteria for many peoples' quality of live. Obviously, there are many benefits of an academic job, I'm just pointing out some of the drawbacks as I see them.

 

I understand that in the time I take to attain a PhD others would have attained a lot more working experience. And since MBA would require me to have working experience, so for the 3-4 years that I will be working, I will not be making much, then I would have to transition back into school mode and pay to go to MBA school. So in the end, I feel that it is more beneficial for me to attain higher education now.

 

In my opinion, this sounds like sound reasoning. I hope you're not only pursuing a PhD for professional/financial reasons though, because in order to obtain a PhD you have to truly be passionate about the subject (given the hard work, long hours, etc it takes to finish). In other words, wanting to be an academic is not a neccesary condition for succeeding in a PhD program, but a strong passion for the subject matter is.

 

On a side note, there is nothing wrong with loving economics, and wanting to use your knowledge of the discipline to make a lot of money. In fact, it seems to me that people usually get heckeled on this forum when they come from that perspective. TMers often say stuff, like "get an MBA instead" which I think is bad advice. First of all, it doesn't take into account the fact that many private sector economists are passionate about economics, which is why they pursued a PhD in Econ as opposed to an MBA. In other word, knowledge of economics is likely in our utility function. Second, even from a purely financial/career perspective I think someone could make a strong case of pursuing a PhD in Econ instead of an MBA (assuming you actually enjoy economics). For one thing, you are much less likely to come out of school with a huge amount of debt (in fact, many econ PhDs won't have to take out a loan for the entire 4 - 6 years). Also, private sector econ jobs tend to be more analytic than MBA jobs, and will often require some amount of research (in fact, I've been told by an economic professor that many times certain places will hire a few Econ PhDs instead of MBAs specifically because of their huge difference in research ability). Let's also not forget that many MBA jobs have longer hours than private sector Econ jobs. And last but not least, getting a PhD can probably be more lucrative than getting an MBA.

 

Anyway, enough of my rambling, I have homework to go do.;) I just wanted to express some of my opinions about PhD economists and the private sector, considering that many people on this board tend to advise people against economics if they want to work in the private sector.

[macroeconomicus]

I think you are very confused if you think that PhD in business and MBA with some experience will lead to similar career paths. They don't. PhD is a research oriented degree. If someone hires a PhD in Business fresh out of school, it's certainly for doing research and not for what MBAs are hired for. Neither is PhD in business is "just like a phd in econ, only you can get a private sector job easily". In fact, your assumption that Economics PhD is not employable in the real world is wrong. There are plenty econ PhD specialties that are more or at least as employable in outside of the academia as Business PhD (depending on specialties of course).

 

First you need to decide whether you should choose a career in research or not. (write a thesis while in school and maybe get a job after graduation and see how it goes). If you decide for the later, then you will need to decide which PhD program you need to join in where. PhD in business is very vague (just like PhD in econ). There exists a half a dozen specialties (Strategic management, Organizational Behavior, Marketing, Finance, Accounting, etc).

 

In terms of non-academic employment for economists, there are certainly some fields that are more marketable than others. People who work in empirical International Trade, I/O, Applied Econometrics, Asset Pricing, and a few other subjects generally are able to find good jobs outside of academia.

[macroeconomicus]

I am currently attending UCSD so when I graduate I would not be able to attain a very well paying job.

 

I am not sure where you got this idea.. UCSD is a pretty good undergraduate institution and reasonably well-known. If you played your cards right and took math, statistics, and economics courses that are more sellable than others, then you could get a pretty well paying job, at least during non-recession years. Expertise in practical application of statistical and econometric methods, understanding of numerical software packages, basics of investments and portfolio management, actuarial science, etc, this stuff used to sell very well. Technical skills in general sell very well (accounting, computer science, etc). I know lots of friends who studied these subjects in various UCs and got pretty good jobs starting at 50-70K/year. I think that's a pretty good pay for someone just fresh out of school. This is not significantly below what MBAs from mid-ranked MBA programs start to make straight out of business school. After that, the ball is in your court and it depends totally on what you do next.

[TooCentric]

Thank you for the responses! They are all extremely helpful.

 

As for my reason to viewing academia not as attractive for me, because location has always been a priority for me. Not only that, I spoke with a professor now at UCSD, who graduated from MIT, sent out over 70 applications twice, only to receive offer from one university. Following that, they are chasing after tenure. And all of this their pay is possibly 120k-150k at a decent research based university. Don't get me wrong, but I think 120-150k is great pay, but for the amount of work and dedication they've gone through, I feel that professors are under compensated. Until they get tenure, they're constantly scrambling for lecture positions, like a recent UCSD Math PhD student I know. I am pretty much adverse to relocation. Besides chasing after a career, I am interested in raising a family. I just think that there would probably be more ease in finding a job that is 6-figures outside of academia following a Ph.D in Economics or Business (I hope) without having to relocate dramatically. And having to do research for the rest of my life doesn't sound too attractive either, maybe I like to meet with people on a more professional level like for Consultant or Finance.

 

I definitely agree that MBA and Phd Business/Economics leads to completely different paths, that is why MBA has never crossed my mind. I feel the same way as Young Economics "TMers often say stuff, like "get an MBA instead'".

 

And again, thank you for all the response and help!

[macroeconomicus]

Location, pay, happiness; I think these are valid concerns.

 

I suppose that you want to be near San Diego? There are still plenty of good graduate programs in that area. Consider applying to both business school (e.g. Business economics or finance, both are broad subjects) and Economics PhD programs at UCLA, USC, UC Irvine, and also econ PhD programs at UCSD and UCSB. 8 applications. That's a pretty good selection and range of economics PhD programs and they're all in socal.

 

Underpaid or not, academic economists do enjoy some perks like having the winter break and summer usually free to themselves, they set their own research agenda, and they get to teach (some people like that) and travel a lot to present their research. Actually, I think academic economists are relatively well paid compared to say math professors. It sounds like the competition for academic jobs is even worse in mathematics. I know there exist some applied probabilists who earn under 100K (under 70K if fresh assistant prof) working in stochastic processes and mathematical finance at big research universities when they could easily take home a nice six figure paycheck if they worked at say a hedge fund.

[fp3690]

Location, pay, happiness; I think these are valid concerns.

 

I suppose that you want to be near San Diego? There are still plenty of good graduate programs in that area. Consider applying to both business school (e.g. Business economics or finance, both are broad subjects) and Economics PhD programs at UCLA, USC, UC Irvine, and also econ PhD programs at UCSD and UCSB. 8 applications. That's a pretty good selection and range of economics PhD programs and they're all in socal.

 

Underpaid or not, academic economists do enjoy some perks like having the winter break and summer usually free to themselves, they set their own research agenda, and they get to teach (some people like that) and travel a lot to present their research. Actually, I think academic economists are relatively well paid compared to say math professors. It sounds like the competition for academic jobs is even worse in mathematics. I know there exist some applied probabilists who earn under 100K (under 70K if fresh assistant prof) working in stochastic processes and mathematical finance at big research universities when they could easily take home a nice six figure paycheck if they worked at say a hedge fund.

 

Yeah, but these people often freelance to hedge funds and/or IB. Like the guy (don't remember his name) who is head of quantitative research at Bloomberg and Head of Department of Financial Mathematics at Courant. Granted, he's the exception, but I'm sure people into probability and stochastics don't have a hard time finding freelance work in addition to academia.

[Economaniac]

Yeah, but these people often freelance to hedge funds and/or IB. Like the guy (don't remember his name) who is head of quantitative research at Bloomberg and Head of Department of Financial Mathematics at Courant. Granted, he's the exception, but I'm sure people into probability and stochastics don't have a hard time finding freelance work in addition to academia.

 

 

The guy's name is Peter Carr, ha has a PhD in Finance from UCLA

[bauble]

Your responses talk a lot about what you don't like but not so much about what you do like. None of the Ph.D. options that are on the table for you (b-school, econ, or even math) are significantly more or less beneficial to a job outside academia. A Ph.D. is hard work and can be very challenging, so it is more important to find out what type of research you like to do and to know what you are getting into. If you neglect this and view it as a stepping stone, you might find yourself knee-deep in a bad situation in a hurry. Seems like you may know a lot of what I'm telling you already, but you haven't mentioned it much regarding your situation.

 

Other comments:

As others mentioned, why so pessimistic about your earnings potential? Math/econ is a solid joint major, so let me reverse the question: what high-paying options are closed to you that are not for some other set of graduates? I honestly don't know what the opportunity differences are between you and say a 4.0 from Harvard.

 

Talking to a math Ph.D. about the rat race in academia is a sure-fire path to depression. Do please enlighten your friend to the opportunities available to him, say, as a quantitative analyst on wall street. The job market for math Ph.D. is much much tougher than for business Ph.D. and substantially tougher than for econ Ph.D.

 

You mention that you don't want to do research the rest of your life, you don't want to relocate, and you want to meet people "on a more professional level." You have just described a tenured b-school professor. I'm just poking a little fun on the first point. Relocation is an issue with academia until you get tenure.

[TooCentric]

In short, I love math and I love econ. I love being in school. Whatever it takes to avoid going to work for now, I'll do. =) So it sounds pretty good to get a PhD in Business or Economics. And to me, a PhD is like insurance that I won't be making 40-50g for the rest of my life.

 

I love teaching economics, but I don't I like to research much... I do enjoy researching, I just don't feel like I would want to do that for the rest of my life reading lots of books and what not.

 

And sounds like PhD in Business and PhD in Economics will both leave me the option of going into academia if I change my mind.

 

Somewhere in this forum, I read that UCI professor makes about 80k? When I read that, that was pretty depressing. And Cal Poly was 60k. And I changed my mind about becoming a professor. For all the talent and capacity that a PhD in Economics from a well ranked University is paid. And private sectors are not as demanding as universities are about hiring top ranking PhD degrees. So that leaves me the choice of going to a not so well ranked university so I won't have to move out of Southern California. "location location location". =)

 

"Do please enlighten your friend to the opportunities available to him, say, as a quantitative analyst on wall street." - I think he knows, but he's one of those people who are into education and higher enlightenment to become a Professor and willing to do what it takes to get tenure.. and that includes moving.

[bauble]

 

"Do please enlighten your friend to the opportunities available to him, say, as a quantitative analyst on wall street." - I think he knows, but he's one of those people who are into education and higher enlightenment to become a Professor and willing to do what it takes to get tenure.. and that includes moving.

 

That's commendable -- good for him.

[Karina 07]

I love teaching economics, but I don't I like to research much... I do enjoy researching, I just don't feel like I would want to do that for the rest of my life reading lots of books and what not.

 

The important thing is, do you like the business world? Like someone else said, I think you've talked a lot about what you don't want and not enough about what you do want. If you don't like a 9-5 or possibly much longer job, either, then you remind me a bit about the phdcomics.com joke: "What did you think you'd be after the Ph.D.?" "Retired."

[TooCentric]

The important thing is, do you like the business world? Like someone else said, I think you've talked a lot about what you don't want and not enough about what you do want. If you don't like a 9-5 or possibly much longer job, either, then you remind me a bit about the phdcomics.com joke: "What did you think you'd be after the Ph.D.?" "Retired."

 

But I do like working 9-5... I currently work 9am-7pm when I'm not in school. That includes, Saturdays, holidays, summers. Any sort of breaks I get. So I'm pretty much set that I would like to work in the private industry. The reason I started this thread was to know what is in higher demand in the private industry: PhD Business or PhD Economics. Thank you.

[bauble]

Whatever it takes to avoid going to work for now, I'll do. =) So it sounds pretty good to get a PhD in Business or Economics. And to me, a PhD is like insurance that I won't be making 40-50g for the rest of my life.

 

 

Well, this thread is a refreshing change from those "oh, I am so passionate about research that I'd give my left arm to do it." Gimme a break!

 

I'm not so sure I'd take that insurance policy. :). In all seriousness, a Ph.D. from a known place in econ/finance is pretty good insurance, but I'm not sure it is for lesser known places and certainly I'd question it for other degrees. The premium is also quite high. In many places you'll have to pass qualifying exams, and in every place you have to write a dissertation that is accepted by your committee. But I'm sure you know all that and are willing to accept the consolation prize (master's) if things don't work out.

 

I don't think there is much diff to your prospects after Ph.D. in the private sector if you compare econ to finance, for example. This is conditional on finishing, so you may want to consider that (I don't know the odds on that conditional on being accepted in each case).