Penn State vs Minnesota

[fatsho]

Hi.

 

I'd like to compare these two choices. While Minnesota has a much higher rank and a better placement record than Penn State, its forte is macro whereas I have a strict preference for microeconomic theory which is what the PSU department is strong in. Moreover, Penn State is a rising department so who knows what the placements will be like by the time I graduate.

 

Another potential problem with PSU is the high attrition rate, they have a reputation for kicking out a non-trivial fraction of the entering class by the end of first year.

 

I am indifferent location-wise ad funding is similar.

 

Any insights would be very helpful!

[kmilo]

Im in a very similar position, so take this with a grain of salt because I haven't made my final decision yet . Minnesota is great for macro and io however their placement for micro is poor; so if macro or io don't interest you at all try to avoid Minnesota. The attrition rate for penn state is worrisome and I wouldn't ignore it like many people say here because to me it's a signal of how much support there is for 1st years , this is something that you should discuss with them during visiting day. Finally, I'll tell you not to project a department into the future , as it is been very common for "up and coming " schools to stall or go back to their previous ranking , so just compre the information you have now. (One last thing which I personally don't know how to take into account is that your interest change when you go to grad school, and are largely shaped by the department you choose ; so there is some discounting to present interest that should be done )

[ExclamationMarx]

Aren't there only a couple professors at Minnesota who do micro theory? If you have a strict preference for it, it might be rough to try to tough it out at Minnesota, even though their department is ranked higher than Penn State (though, like kmilo said, their ranking is based on their success in macro and IO.)

[Econhead]

Im in a very similar position, so take this with a grain of salt because I haven't made my final decision yet . Minnesota is great for macro and io however their placement for micro is poor; so if macro or io don't interest you at all try to avoid Minnesota. The attrition rate for penn state is worrisome and I wouldn't ignore it like many people say here because to me it's a signal of how much support there is for 1st years , this is something that you should discuss with them during visiting day. Finally, I'll tell you not to project a department into the future , as it is been very common for "up and coming " schools to stall or go back to their previous ranking , so just compre the information you have now. (One last thing which I personally don't know how to take into account is that your interest change when you go to grad school, and are largely shaped by the department you choose ; so there is some discounting to present interest that should be done )

 

I generally agree with these sentiments. A few things:

 

1. Ignoring the attrition rates (with some non-zero probability) may not matter at many schools, but some programs are known for being brutal. Many years ago Wisconsin was known for their brutal exams. If I was in your place, I would certainly inquire-In this case I would speak with both a professor (or the DGS), and students to get both individuals opinions of who/why/#.

 

2. Preferences change, but often there are limits to this. For example, I strictly prefer game theory, however, there's not a snowballs chance in hell that I'm ever going to specialize in either macro theory or anything econometrics. Perhaps applied macro, but not macro theory, and never econometrics (as a field itself). I would encourage you (as well as others) to think about this type of preferences more than just "A>B>C."

 

3. Trying to predict the future is difficult-I agree. I think working off current information (which includes future predictions) is important with the caveat that I'm not going to listen to what the university or their professors tell me. I'm much more interested in what the students think, and what my advisor (or even his colleagues that he knows there or elsewhere) think. For example, UIUC used to be amazing, now it's still a great program, but not T10 by any stretch. They currently are hiring faculty-a lot each year for many years to come. That's all great, but it ultimately depends who they hire. I've yet to hear, despite hearing about all the hiring, that "they're really coming up in the world." This will take time, and short of getting a lot of really well known people on board, it won't happen in the next 5 years.

[fatsho]

The attrition rate for penn state is worrisome and I wouldn't ignore it like many people say here because to me it's a signal of how much support there is for 1st years , this is something that you should discuss with them during visiting day. Finally, I'll tell you not to project a department into the future , as it is been very common for "up and coming " schools to stall or go back to their previous ranking , so just compre the information you have now. (One last thing which I personally don't know how to take into account is that your interest change when you go to grad school, and are largely shaped by the department you choose ; so there is some discounting to present interest that should be done )

 

Well, no matter how much my interests change I will not want to do macro.

 

I'm an international student so visit days aren't really a feasible idea for me. But I have spoken to someone currently at Penn State and they didn't seem too happy with it because of the pressure that high attrition exerts. But sample size of 1 doesn't yield the most reliable results.

[fatsho]

Aren't there only a couple professors at Minnesota who do micro theory? If you have a strict preference for it, it might be rough to try to tough it out at Minnesota, even though their department is ranked higher than Penn State (though, like kmilo said, their ranking is based on their success in macro and IO.)

 

Is there any way that can work for me? Minnesota has about five people I want to work with, but given self-selection towards macro, I wouldn't really have to "compete" for these people to be my advisors. Well, it's hard to let go of the difference in ranking!

[fakeo]

Is there any way that can work for me? Minnesota has about five people I want to work with, but given self-selection towards macro, I wouldn't really have to "compete" for these people to be my advisors. Well, it's hard to let go of the difference in ranking!

 

Check out whether

1. the micro faculty at Minnesota is still active in terms of research (I found that in many places the majority of the department were "deadwood", not having published in years),

2. micro profs at MN regularly take on PhD students,

3. the placement of MN students with a thesis in micro is something you'd be satisfied with,

4. you like the research MN micro faculty does.

 

If the answer is 'yes' to all four, then that's good news. Also, on a slightly unrelated note, I'd be cautious with these so-called "up-and-coming" departments. I swear I heard countless departments characterizing themselves this way... It's more credible to hear this from places that have already made some (not one or two) impressive hires recently. But if it's just plans, then I'd be careful.

[Where To Go]

But sample size of 1 doesn't yield the most reliable results.

You can always ask for some grad students to email questions to or just look up some yourself. Not all may answer, but a couple definitely will.

[fatsho]

You can always ask for some grad students to email questions to or just look up some yourself. Not all may answer, but a couple definitely will.

 

I will do that, thank you.

 

I have spoken to grad students who did their MA from the same college as me (one of them is at Penn State, other at Minnesota, and a third at MSU) and their unanimous advice is to pick Minnesota over Penn State because (i) the former will offer a much more relaxed environment, PSU is apparently cut-throat especially if you want to do micro theory, as there is almost no attrition at Minnesota ; (ii) the difference in ranking and placements is significant ; (iii) I'll have very little competition if I want to do theory (the downside is ofc that I lose the chance to be the "star candidate" that the department focuses on ).

 

The advice in this thread is in stark contrast to the above. I guess if I can find a couple of people whose research interests me and who take on PhD students regularly, then I should go for Minnesota, right?

[Food4Thought]

I suggest taking a look at the recent Duke vs Minnesota thread. Someone posted a very informative and detailed explanation of why they chose Duke over Minnesota. It also applies here.

[fatsho]

I suggest taking a look at the recent Duke vs Minnesota thread. Someone posted a very informative and detailed explanation of why they chose Duke over Minnesota. It also applies here.

 

Thank you so much! That really helped.

[yc00]

I'm a grad student at Minnesota and I'd like to share some thoughts with you about your situation because I had similar options when I applied. It seems to me that you're a little bit confused (we all are at that point) and you might not have the right information (not saying that the other posters are wrong, just that there's more info available). First, I want to clarify that I'm not trying to dissuade you from coming to Minnesota, I'd never do that, but as much as I like convincing people to come here, I want them to do it for the right reasons and with the right information. You can PM if you want. Most of the information I am going to share is publicly available, if you have more questions then you can ask here or in private. I encourage you to keep gathering information.

I think that Penn State is one of the most underrated programs, and it could be one with the highest value added. I was thinking something similar to you and I thought that the decision was trivial: for reputation and ranking I should go to Minnesota. Well, it turns out it wasn't but I only realized this because my advisor told that I had to be crazy to think that Minnesota strictly dominates Penn State, at the begging it was weird but then I start digging and I gather enough information to see what He meant. At the end I accepted Minnesota for the simple reason that I want to do Macro and I don't see myself in any other. field. It was the right choice for me but as one of our Professors says: "Minnesota is not for everybody but if it's for you"...Well actually He never finishes the sentence but if it's for you then it'll be a great program. Something like that is even in the Department's website. I don't know why Penn State is not so popular among students but it seems to me that when you talk to any Professor about it, they consider it as one of the most serious departments and PhD programs.

First, I don't know to whom you have been talking with but all the people I know from PSU are very happy with the program. I know a guy who turned down Michigan, another UCLA and Minnesota, another Rochester and Brown and I am sure there're more case. After some time, they can't be more happy and they say they made the right decision...The attrition rate is not due because the program wants to kick you out, it's simply because some people have a bad background and the courses are hard, specially Mathematics for Economists, but I don't think brutal is the best word to describe them. If you don't have the level required you're gonna fail in any program, If you have a good background you shouldn't be worried. I know people without math majors who passed without problem (with a lot of work tho). So, the courses are hard but not with the intention to make you fail.

Consider also that Penn State gives funding to almost every student and they do want you to stay in the program. Those programs who want to kick you out or only want certain fraction of the initial class in the second year are those with a lot of unfunded students. Also, the funding at PSU only requires a few hours of TA, if I'm not wrong, so you're not cheap labor either. If they plan to cut throats they'd do it in the admissions not after spending 24k or 27k or 30k per student, and that's good money for State College!

Penn State is one of the best programs in Micro theory the training is excellent and you have the opportunity to work with people like Krishna, Green, Marshall and now Ron Siegel, all of them are not only good researchers but also excellent advisors. They're also great people in applied micro, trade and development: they have Roberts, Tybout, Yeaple and Kala Krishna. Even more, Eaton teaches a mini once a year and he's open to co-advise students (look at the JMC). Rodriguez-Clare left some years ago but he is still involved in the program and some students have working papers with him and there's also chance to have him as a co-advisor. However, there's no need to go outside because those who are actually in Penn State are big names.

In Econometrics they have one of the most solid groups out there: recently they hired Ronald Gallant, Patrick Guggenburger, Marc Henry, and Andres Aradillas-Lopez. Plus Joris Pinkse and Sung Jae Jun were already there. Check their websites, they all are amazing. Finally, even if you want to do Macro they have Wallace, Shi, Cooper and Dovis (a recent Minnesota graduate who's very promising) an amazing group as well. As you see they have stars in all fields. So even if you change you're mind, you cannot go wrong.

Check the students websites, some of them have publications in top journals like Journal of Economic Theory, Games and Economic Behavior, Economic Theory, etc. Also many forthcomings or R&R before going to the market. Take your time and google their names because some of their websites are not in the department's page. Many of them have working papers with the faculty, even in the third year. Some of them will be in the market with more than three papers. This tells you that the program is really committed to help students to take the jump from classes to research and they do it very well. That's crucial when you measure the quality of the program. I haven't seen many programs where good students are that productive.

It seems to me that if you're a good student you can do very well at Penn State, you'll have excellent resources to your disposition and, most important, you can work on the fields you actually like with top researchers.

While Minnesota dominates in placements, Penn State have placed students in top programs in all fields. You should not take the outliers as your parameter but it tells you that they can place good students well, you wont be under-placed. Also, their placement is not bounded (well, obviously there's only a finite set of top programs) so the program has the ability to put you where you deserve, even in top programs. See the placement record.

I'm not going to say much about Minnesota because I think that the information available is quite accurate, you do have to check the Minnesota vs Duke thread. Econlurker does a wonderful job summarizing some of the pros and cons of the program (BTW I think I know who you are econlurker, I'll PM you). So, there's not much to add (also, because I have to catch the light rail to the airport soon hehe). Some things you have to take into account: only David Rahman and Aldo Rustichini are doing research in Micro Theory (Beth Allen hasn't published anything since 2004, she's basically retired and it's definitely not the person you what to work with) both of them are great but Aldo doesn't take many students and David just got tenure so he's still opening his way in the academic world, very promising but still on his way. So, it's not clear that you can have an advisor that'll place you well if you don't do Macro or IO. Again, they're great, don't get me wrong. If you decide to do theory in Minnesota you'll be ok but as economist we have to see the opportunity cost and that'd be that you'd be doing theory in Minnesota while you could be doing it in Penn State.

About predicting the future of the program, I agree that you should not judge a department of what it could be but for what it is. Penn State is doing great currently, But the projection of the Department is also important, I think the fact that they've been consistently hiring big names and promising young professors in all fields is a good sign of the direction of the program. The Department is financially healthy and that's very important. Don't neglect that the stipend is very generous at PSU.

My advice is come to Minnesota if you want to do Macro. Macro is amazing here. We breath, we eat and we sweat macro. But if don't like macro you'll have a bad time. Well, the IO group is good as well. So, if there's a chance your research interest is not going to be in {Macro, IO} with a strong probability in Macro, I wouldn't advise you to come here having an option like Penn State.

Having said that, I am happy with the program and I don't regret my decision at all, but as I said, I wanted to do Macro. Still, some of the few things I don't like of the program is the lack of diversity in terms of research, but you also have to consider that Minnesota is a small Department in a State R1 University. What does this mean? The focus of the university is in research and graduate studies, so they don't have to invest a lot in undergraduates, so graduates students are teaching most of the undergraduate courses (in all the University), so the Department doesn't need to hire just to fill the positions. Also, that's how funding works, you get paid for being a TA in the first year around $15k and after the first year a little bit more for teaching your own course. So, if there was more Professors they probably wouldn't have admitted me, so I don't complain :) . However, the point is that the Department has to and can use their resources in their strengths.

If you have specific questions I can answer them. I never post here but I have received many emails with questions so I stopped by to take a look, plus I had some hours free. Send me a PM and I can give you my email so you make sure I'll answer your questions. In the summer I'll probably start a thread with questions for perspectives students but I'll be to late for you. Anyway, I'll be happy to share my experience so far. Also, I know there are many of my classmates in this board and they do good job providing feedback from the program and they're better summarizing the main idea... Sorry for the long post but I feel that it's fair to have the right information. Just keep your mind open and do your research. If after all you decide to come here, you'll be more than welcomed.

My last advise talk with many people, most students have been in a position similar to yours, we understand and we are grateful with those who took the time to help us before. That's how this works. So pick a bunch of students and mail them. Our emails are in the websites and that's the reason. Also, I remember that I exchanged some emails some Professors at Penn State, they were very kind to helpful responding. So ask to whoever you've talking with there (I assume it's still Krista and probably V. Krishna) to put you in contact with some of the faculty you're interested to work with.

Best!

Edited March 16, 2015 by yc00
Post was longer than expected!

[Econhead]

The attrition rate is not due because the program wants to kick you out, it's simply because some people have a bad background and the courses are hard, specially Mathematics for Economists, but I don't think brutal is the best word to describe them. If you don't have the level required you're gonna fail in any program, If you have a good background you shouldn't be worried. I know people without math majors who passed without problem (with a lot of work tho). So, the courses are hard but not with the intention to make you fail.

 

I don't agree with this.

 

If Penn State has a high attrition rate (with respect to quals), there's one of two things going on: (1) They are interested in "weeding" people out, or (2) They are particularly terrible at picking suitable students. There's no other reason why other programs like Ohio State (mentioned in another thread yesterday) has perhaps 1 or 2 people fail each year, and other programs have a comparably higher proportion of students fail. Even if the quals are comparably more difficult, and you believe that is because Penn State is in a different league ("under-ranked"), that doesn't discount that the department is particularly bad at choosing successful students for their department.

[paulwing]

Do you guys know why Minnesota is not very well ranked by RePEc (at least, it is not as well ranked as I had supposed)?

[ecoptimist]

It's because "Please note that rankings can depend on the number of registered authors in the respective institutions."

UMN only has 30 registered affiliated authors, and only 15 of those are actual faculty or ex-faculty. The other half are current/former students.

 

Do you guys know why Minnesota is not very well ranked by RePEc (at least, it is not as well ranked as I had supposed)?

[ecoptimist]

What precisely do you mean by "microeconomic theory"? Hardcore micro theory (axioms of choice etc) is perhaps the toughest field in terms of getting a reasonable job, and so unless you are going to someplace like Chicago, Stanford or MIT, I would seriously reconsider (or be open to reconsidering) this field. If you mean it more loosely, then Penn State or UMN might both be good choices. UMN takes theory much more seriously than most other places, and so you will learn all the tools you need in order to do theory in pretty much any area. The downside is that the number of profs in each field is limited, and most of the "micro theorists" at UMN are not very active anymore (the exception being the game theory guys).

 

Hi.

 

I'd like to compare these two choices. While Minnesota has a much higher rank and a better placement record than Penn State, its forte is macro whereas I have a strict preference for microeconomic theory which is what the PSU department is strong in. Moreover, Penn State is a rising department so who knows what the placements will be like by the time I graduate.

 

Another potential problem with PSU is the high attrition rate, they have a reputation for kicking out a non-trivial fraction of the entering class by the end of first year.

 

I am indifferent location-wise ad funding is similar.

 

Any insights would be very helpful!