TOP 5 reasons to do/not do a PhD!!!

[ashasuresh]

Hi,

 

I am in the middle of a serious dilemma.

I love economics and am excited about an academic life. However I am not sure and get tempted by the top dollars in the private sector.

 

What are the top 5 reasons why one should do a Phd and top 5 reasons why one should not?

I am hoping your responses will help me make an informed decision.

 

cheers

[kipfilet]

Among the top 5 of why you should not: come to this board in mid-February and behold the anxiety.

[buno]

If you love economics, a phd will allow you to earn money while loving your job:)

[tm_member]

What you are really asking is, 'why would I want to be an academic'? That's personal, and involves a love of teaching and research, and placing little value on making more than 120k per year. Sure the private sector might tempt you with a $150k paycheck from the start, but what can you do with $150k that you can't do with $100k?

 

Of course, you should only do a PhD if you are interested in having a career in academia, it is a necessary (albeit not sufficient) requirement for obtaining an academic position but not for the 99% of even good jobs in the private sector.

 

The problem is the benefits to actually 'doing a PhD' are long term, whereas the pain endured is short term. Personally, 100k to do what I love beats 150k for a stressful private sector position every time, but that is a personal choice. You have to look at your options, and preferences. Also, talk to family and friends and read "the making of an economist."

[econoecon]

How much money do you need? Certainly you can be upper-middle-class as a professor (assuming you go to a decently-ranked program and get a good enough placement), although you'd have to live on a low stipend for 5-ish years before you'd actually earn a real salary. If you're looking to be mega-rich though, then academia is probably not the best place for you. You *can* go into the private sector with a PhD; however given the difficulty of getting a PhD, I would say that a PhD is not worth it if your end goal is the private sector (although its nice to know that the private sector is a fall-back option in case academia doesn't work out).

 

I think that its a very personal decision and you have to do what is best for you. I decided that for me a PhD is worth it, and I have other friends from undergrad who had the same major as me and would have been competitive for top 20 PhD programs but decided that for them a PhD is not worth it.

Edited March 26, 2011 by econoecon

[topologist]

Possible reasons for doing PhD:

1) Interested in taking issues and knowing about them in detail and eventually trying to solve them.

2) Not losing interest even if you fail to solve, on the contrary, getting more interested in it and curious to know is there any solution at all.

3) The elegant life style of academics and their reputation, flexibility to work according to your own ideas and thoughts, no private intervention.

 

One should not do a PhD if:

1) Unsure, at the time of joining the PhD, whether to attend it or not.

2) One gives up so easily or lose interest easily if faced with constant failures.

3) Not so open to learning new things, close-minded approach will never work with doing research.

 

That's my 2c.

[econslave]

I think that a strong interest in academia is a necessary condition for entering a Ph.D. program in economics. Throughout your first year, your desire to enter academia will be challenged. Your ideas about what it means to be an academic economist will change, since you will witness what academic economics is really like, as opposed to what you thought it was as an undergraduate. Moreover, your expectations about what your life as an academic economist will change. For this reason, you need to have a strong interest before you enter. If you go into the program thinking you'll be fine in a private sector job, you'll take any chance to convince yourself it's time to drop out with a MA and get a private sector job. Even with a strong interest in academia, you might feel this way.

 

When I was an undergraduate, I focused on only the positive aspects of academia -- flexible schedules, lack of the kind of politics you see in the corporate world, and what I viewed as a meritocracy. However, once you become acquainted with successful academic economists, you see some things that mirror the corporate world more than you might think:

 

-- Many successful academic economists don't really feel like making time for graduate students. Some are quite cocky, and view graduate students as a kind of resource to advance their own agendas.

-- Academia is EXTREMELY political. If you're the type who's going into academia because you don't want to network your entire career, you are in for a rude awakening. Writing excellent papers is not enough.

-- Chances are, even if you are an excellent researcher, you will not get a top 20 placement. This is just supply and demand.

-- The life of an assistant professor at a top research university is similar to the life of someone starting out in the private sector -- you work long hours, and still have people above you that you need to please, in some sense.

-- Academics are just like any other group of people -- some nice, some not

 

That said, your expectations might change your first year, and if you still want to enter academia, then you made the right choice. But if you enter with little to no desire to become an academic, you are probably only going to like academia even less once you're in the Ph.D. program.

 

Just my two cents.

[The MAN]

A while back I saw an external website on this topic. I don't remember too much about what it said, but the one thing that sticks with me is: "if you can see yourself doing something else (and being happy doing it), then you shouldn't go into academia."

[Harry Lime]

"if you can see yourself doing something else (and being happy doing it), then you shouldn't go into academia."

I can see myself living on a yacht in the Caribbean and sleeping on a water-bed full of liquid platinum, so I guess I should just do that instead of going into academia.

[econm]

you shouldn't do a phd if you don't want to

 

similarly...

 

you should do a phd if you do want to

 

it's a helpful post (i know)

[Cuak2000]

Bed of liquid platinum...uhm, that sounds rather kinky

[kt253]

I can see myself living on a yacht in the Caribbean and sleeping on a water-bed full of liquid platinum, so I guess I should just do that instead of going into academia.

 

Not sure if this was just a flippant response, especially since I've seen you say that you like to drink and TM at times for amusement, but assuming it wasn't:

 

I think the quote posted by The MAN has a point here and some level of charitableness should be used in evaluating the argument. Obviously it was not talking about seeing oneself doing anything else - rather, it was talking about starting a different type of career out of the set of options available to a person in his or her current situation. In addition, being happy in an alternate profession would very much entail being content or happy with the fact that one sacrificed an academic career for another line of work. If this is indeed the case, the quote from The MAN seems to make a fairly reasonable point, which shouldn't elicit any real controversy.

Edited March 27, 2011 by kt253
Did a little drinking and TMing of my own :)

[Zeno]

you shouldn't do a phd if you don't want to

similarly...

you should do a phd if you do want to

it's a helpful post (i know)

 

I actually do think there's some merit to this...

- If you're lukewarm to the idea of getting through a PhD, then it's just too much work. Lots of people, intelligent people who are truly passionate about economics, fail to complete PhDs. If your heart isn't in it, the stress of staying afloat isn't worth it. Even just in first year: I'm working very hard this year, and I really don't think I could sustain this effort level if I didn't love the material so much.

- If you truly want to do a PhD, and are really willing to put in the work, then do it. You get to do the thing you want, you get (assuming you worked hard and got funding somewhere) a livable wage while you do it, and your job prospects are no worse coming out of it. Sure, it's ~5 years of your life, but doing something you want to do isn't a waste of time, even if you aren't pursuing it for it's direct career implications.

[Zeno]

... Especially since i've seen you say that you like to drink and tm at times for amusement...

Paaaaarrrrrttttttyyyyy!

[LameDuck]

Top reason to do a PhD: You do what you love and have no real boss.

 

Top reason not to do a PhD: You may have to withstand a barrage of criticism of your work (and possibly character -- see EJMR); you have to be persistent in the face of failure; you have professional politics in the place of a boss.

 

 

Paaaaarrrrrttttttyyyyy!

 

Not without me you don't!

 

Someone notify P.T. Barnum...this is gonna get outta hand.

[ashasuresh]

Thank you everyone for your responses.

I guess I should have been more precise with my question. Nevertheless, it sparked a nice conversation.

My dilemma really is this:

I am truly excited by academia. I love everything it has to offer but there are reasons which as I learn more about the realities of the field are now scaring me a bit.

I am just going to put down my top 5 reasons for doing/not doing a phd in decreasing order of importance and may be people here can see whether they agree with me or not.

Doing a PhD:

1) variety of problems to be solved in economics, an area I love.

2) extended holiday each year..I am assuming a college curriculum allows 2-3 months of leave spread over the year compared to a measly 2-3 weeks in the private sector. This gives me the option of working or not in the holidays giving me more control over my time.

3) write books and make good money from them.

4) meet extremely smart, intelligent people throughout who are also passionate about what you do.

5) stay on a campus and feel young right through old age.

 

NOT do a PhD.

 

1) Even if one makes it to a top 20 school for PhD, the margin or error in terms of getting a good placement is so low that it is scary. Using an analogy, even if one topped undergrad, it isn't unreasonable to assume one may not land a great job in the private sector. The sheer paucity of even decent academic placements is baffling and really scary. Where is the safety net if one doesn't land a job?

2) Salaries very low compared to the private sector. I say low only because if you worked as hard in the private sector, one would earn a million dollars a year.

3) Post doc seems like a necessity for most people. Marriage, kids etc will have to be postponed quite a bit.

4) If academia is also highly politicised like the private sector, will I really get to speak my mind? Its going to be suffocating if I cannot despite having worked so hard.

5) A lot of Econ PhDs go to business schools to teach. If I had wanted to do business, I would have done an MBA instead. What the point then?

[kipfilet]

.

5) A lot of Econ PhDs go to business schools to teach. If I had wanted to do business, I would have done an MBA instead. What the point then?

 

You'll probably be teaching economics, not business. Anyway, business schools are better money than econ departments and still provide you with great co-authors (lots of good economists there).

[TomRod]

(1) Get to research problems you find interesting

(2) Better wages that most bachelor's degrees after 5 years

(3) Conferences! Laid-back work schedule! Possibly secretaries if you end up at an Ivy League school! Casual dress nearly every day!

(4) The opportunity to debate your best ideas in a room of like-minded individuals

(5) Potential for great job security with job tenure (though, if you calculate the odds conditional on succeeding in the job market and in publishing, the average person is likely to be more successful in a startup environment)

 

(1) Coming up with problems that interest you to research

(2) You will likely become a troll on EJMR (not YOU in particular, but the average economics student)

(3) A good, motivated Python programmer (Python is super easy to learn) will make equal or greater wages to you after 5 years experience

(4) Your ideas and questions will always be challenged

(5) You will waste a lot of trees working through MWG

 

I leave to you decide which set of five is positive and which set of five are negative.

 

Realize that these are not mutually exclusive.

[tm_member]

Just wanted to make some comments, both in agreement and in disagreement with the OP's list.

 

 

1) variety of problems to be solved in economics, an area I love

2) extended holiday each year..I am assuming a college curriculum allows 2-3 months of leave spread over the year compared to a measly 2-3 weeks in the private sector. This gives me the option of working or not in the holidays giving me more control over my time.

Simply not true, you don't have to be on campus, but taking 2-3 months off is not at all what you will be doing. In fact, you will have less time truly 'off' than in the private sector, you never get a real holiday... there's always more to read, emails to answer, recommendations to write, papers to referee, teaching prep, grading, advising, and of course some research of your own if you get time

3) write books and make good money from them. How many actually do this successfully?

4) meet extremely smart, intelligent people throughout who are also passionate about what you do.

5) stay on a campus and feel young right through old age. A plus right now, which might grate on you in the future

 

NOT do a PhD.

 

1) Even if one makes it to a top 20 school for PhD, the margin or error in terms of getting a good placement is so low that it is scary. Using an analogy, even if one topped undergrad, it isn't unreasonable to assume one may not land a great job in the private sector. The sheer paucity of even decent academic placements is baffling and really scary. Where is the safety net if one doesn't land a job? There are very very few PhD economists from top 50 schools who are not in high demand somewhere, albeit not always for an academic position

2) Salaries very low compared to the private sector. I say low only because if you worked as hard in the private sector, one would earn a million dollars a year. You mean the hours you put into the PhD? Those who make that kind of money are usually good at making money for others and people pay well for that, however a million dollars is not realistic 5 years out from undergrad

3) Post doc seems like a necessity for most people. Marriage, kids etc will have to be postponed quite a bit. Plenty of students in my program are married and/or have kids

4) If academia is also highly politicised like the private sector, will I really get to speak my mind? Its going to be suffocating if I cannot despite having worked so hard. Not until you get tenured

5) A lot of Econ PhDs go to business schools to teach. If I had wanted to do business, I would have done an MBA instead. What the point then?As others have said, you are not 'doing business' in a business school, you are getting paid really well to teach economics...

[ashasuresh]

In money terms, I am really trying to compare the salary of a partner at lets say mckinsey or a tenured prof at top 25 school( business school).

I am more than willing to take the 5 years of stipend. Its a small sacrifice for life.

What would an economist (tenured prof) make at lets say ( harvard and UCLA and USC) ..just want to get an idea!

Is there money to be made by way of consulting?

Lastly, do think tanks like RAND, Brookings, Institute of fiscal studies(UK), BIS, etc hire PhDs? I know IMF and world bank do.

[whatdoido]

In money terms, I am really trying to compare the salary of a partner at lets say mckinsey or a tenured prof at top 25 school( business school).

I am more than willing to take the 5 years of stipend. Its a small sacrifice for life.

What would an economist (tenured prof) make at lets say ( harvard and UCLA and USC) ..just want to get an idea!

Is there money to be made by way of consulting?

Lastly, do think tanks like RAND, Brookings, Institute of fiscal studies(UK), BIS, etc hire PhDs? I know IMF and world bank do.

 

I can tell you that if money is what you're looking for, most people on these boards will tell you that a PhD is probably not for you.

[TomRod]

Ashasuresh

 

I don't see your profile listed in the forums. But unless you have a stellar undergrad or fabulous connections, you may be setting your sites very high for a business school in the top 25. This isn't a bad thing. Just keep it realistic.

 

For more information. the econ wiki (here: Econjobmarket - BluWiki) will give you an idea what people are making. Also jobmarket flyouts and decisions are connected in the wiki.

[Kaysa]

I am about to conclude my PhD. Lets see what I can add

 

Pros:

1) Freedom to do whatever you want, whenever you want

2) Can study topics that interest you

3) You can get a great private/gov't sector job

4) Economic skills are very useful

5) Stimulating environment

 

Cons:

1) On average, economists are children.

2) Research positions are scarce.

3) Research jobs aren't that great.

-Your time is devoted entirely to research. (I work all day on my research. All day)

-There are no vacations. (I take 2 weeks off every year, and even during those two weeks I am thinking about research)

-There is no rest. (It won't leave me alone. I even dream about my research)

4) The publishing process made me lose all faith in economists

5) I don't like this field anymore

 

I think working as an academic economist is fine, and I see a lot of advantages in doing so. However, the lifestyle is not nearly as idealistic as a lot of people make it out to be, and what shocked me most wasn't what most people warned me about. I think what really shocked me about graduate school was the transformation in character. Everyone starts out relatively motivated, upbeat and happy. However, somewhere along the line these same people start becoming more bitter, cynical and unpleasant. I have seen this in myself, and think it is disturbing.

[tangsiuje]

When a student in my class tells me s/he is thinking about doing a PhD in economics and asks for some input, I give a variation on the MAN's very sound advice upthread: only ever consider doing a PhD if the only job you could ever see yourself doing is being an academic. I think that sums it up pretty well: doing a PhD should always be a "last resort".

 

Some reasons:

 

1. Doing a PhD in economics will never pay off in monetary terms: if you can get into a decent economics PhD program and you are not socially inept, you're presumably smart enough to earn six-figures within a couple of years in the private sector as well.

 

2. By entering a PhD program with the intention to become an academic economist, you're essentially putting your real life on hold for at least 13 or so years (until tenure). This may be a very real problem, especially if you're a woman. While people who work real jobs get weekends or holidays, you do not. (You may *think* you get these, but you will not be able to really relax because you're still thinking about "work". Some find that drugs help here.)

 

3. A very large chunk of economics research is utterly useless (for any purpose), and will only be read by other academic economists, or by no one at all (perhaps with the exception of the referee at the third-tier journal). On the few occassions that an academic economist actually comes up with something useful ("policy relevant"), the idea will never get implemented in practice (because the political process efficiently ensures that most economic incentives are appropriately distorted).

 

There are some good sides to doing a PhD in economics too, but these can outweigh the bad things only if the only job you could ever see yourself doing is being an academic (you sort of need lexicographic preferences), so there is no reason to go into the specifics. Re the "academic freedom", this may be true after tenure (when most people just stop publishing anyway -- realizing the pointlessness of the game), but not before: the economics profession is very judgemental about what kind of research is "high quality" or "interesting", so you had better adhere.

[kevinp123]

tangsiuje, if you no longer want to be an academic economist (if I interpreted your post correctly), why not look for employment in the private sector? Can you not find any other types of employment? I am just trying to understand why you think getting a PhD was the worst decision of your life.