Preliminars

[ecpfdq]

Hello all!

 

Greetings to all as this happens to be my first post.I hope we will have pleasant discussions in the time to come!

 

Now on the thread topic, I hear a lot to be said on preliminary examination.And I have to confess that I do not know much what they really are.Can anyone explain what exactly they are, when should be taken and the consequences of failing?

 

Thanks,

[TruDog]

Preliminary exams (or prelims) are required of students at almost all PhD programs, with the exception of Illinois and few others. Students take two to three prelims, depending on the university. Macro theory and micro theory are almost completely standard and some schools also require an econometrics prelim. I think a few other schools have some sort of a prelim in major fields.

 

Prelims are usually drawn from the material that students should learn during the first year of a PhD program. Generally, students take prelims for the first time in the summer following their first year and hope to pass at least one. For those who fail one or both prelims, a second attempt is offered either in January or in the following summer. Some schools also offer third attempts on a limited basis, such as Wisconsin.

 

If you can't pass prelims after the specified number of attempts, you will be asked to leave the program no later than the end of the semester during which you receive your results.

 

For an idea of what prelims cover, here's a link to Wisconsin's prelims:

 

Sample Prelim Exams - Economics

[ecpfdq]

So as far I understand the preliminary examination consist on the courses taken in the first year and the examination is based on those courses syllabus.Am I wrong?

[pevdoki1]

No, you are not wrong. The exams cover the material you learn during the first year.

[YoungEconomist]

Preliminary exams (or prelims) are required of students at almost all PhD programs, with the exception of Illinois and few others.

 

I always wonder about UIUC. Is anybody on here a grad student at UIUC (or even just knows about the program)?

 

I'm under the impression that instead of prelims, they require one to maintain certain grades throughout the first year. I always wonder if this is effectively the same thing as prelims, in the sense that it tends to "weed out" the same number of students (and perhaps more or less the same students would not get past the first year under both systems). Anybody have any info on their attrition rates and how they compare to other similar programs?

 

On the other hand, sometimes I think I personally might be better off under a system like UIUC's, given the incremental nature of the tests (as opposed to a couple huge tests that cover everything learned at the end of the first year). I guess it just seems to me that UIUC's system is more similar to undergrad testing, which is something most of us on this board have probably excelled at.

 

Lastly, the other thing I wonder about the UIUC system, is if it is slightly easier to pass the first year, which may do a disservice to some of the students. For example, let's assume that there are generally 2 different types of students, one that will be able to finish a dissertation and another that will not be able to finish a dissertation. If passing prelims is a strong signal that you will be able to finish a dissertation, then this information is very helpful to students. I personally would not even want to continue past the first year or two if I was the type of student that would stick around for 8 years working on a dissertation until I am finally kicked out of the program. I would much rather enter a PhD program and just leave with an MA in economics and get a job. In other words, I wonder if UIUC has a higher proportion of students who stick around and never finish a dissertation? If this is the case, I personally might prefer having prelims.

 

P.S. Does anybody know if UIUC generally gives masters degrees to the students that don't keep a high enough GPA to "pass" the first year?

[asquare]

So as far I understand the preliminary examination consist on the courses taken in the first year and the examination is based on those courses syllabus.Am I wrong?

Basically, this is right. However, the professors who write the prelims are not always the same as the professors who taught the classes. The prelims are technically broader than the courses, and can sometimes emphasize material that wasn't stressed in class. The idea is that they examine your understanding of basic micro/macro/metrics theory. They are more comprehensive than just a cumulative final exam.

[Andronicus]

When I visited UIUC, they said about 1/3 of entering students do not make it through the core. That's a higher attrition rate than OSU, which is similarly ranked and does have prelims.

[YoungEconomist]

When I visited UIUC, they said about 1/3 of entering students do not make it through the core. That's a higher attrition rate than OSU, which is similarly ranked and does have prelims.

 

Suprising. Isn't Ohio State known for having a high attrition rate?

[ecpfdq]

Basically, this is right. However, the professors who write the prelims are not always the same as the professors who taught the classes. The prelims are technically broader than the courses, and can sometimes emphasize material that wasn't stressed in class. The idea is that they examine your understanding of basic micro/macro/metrics theory. They are more comprehensive than just a cumulative final exam.

 

Yes but now I am confused.So the preliminars are exams taking in the end of first year which material is covered during core modules.So my question now is if these exams are separetate examination respect to the first year modules or just the first year modules exam are called preliminars and are taken as described?

[asquare]

The "prelims" are not the same as the final exams for the first year courses. They are exams taken at the end of the year -- after final exams for the first year courses. Some schools give the prelims in the spring, after the first year ends, and other schools give the prelims in the fall, right before second year begins.

[israelecon]

asquare, i think you are right for some schools, but not all. for example, this is princeton's requirements:

Requirements

 

Satisfactory performance in the six first-year courses is required for passing the first part of the general examination. Students need to demonstrate competency in basic mathematics by passing a written examination. A course in mathematics for economists (ECO 500) is offered annually by the department and entering students with inadequate preparation are advised to take this course.

Students are expected to take at least six advanced courses during their second year. At the end of the second year, they are required to take examinations in two fields that are usually chosen from among the following list: (1) advanced macroeconomic theory, (2) advanced microeconomic theory, (3) behavioral/experimental, (4) demography, (5) econometrics, (6) economic development, (7) financial economics, (8) industrial organization, (9) international money and finance, (10) international trade, (11) labor economics, (12) political economy, and (13) public finance. Students may also participate in the Program in Political Economy. Participation in this program requires that students take two designated graduate courses in politics and that they choose political economy as one of the two fields for the examination. Students are advised to consult with appropriate faculty members on the extent and the coverage of the fields.

In the second year, students are also required to write a research paper on a topic of their choice.

All students are encouraged to attend weekly seminars in their area of interest. Students who have passed their generals are expected to regularly attend one weekly seminar. There is no language requirement.

Students are granted a master’s degree providing they pass the six first-year courses with an average of 2.5 or better and two field examinations, or six courses beyond the first-year core.

To obtain the Ph.D., the qualified candidate must also submit an acceptable written dissertation and pass a final public oral examination.

so they call all the requirements together "general examination", but there is no separate exam testing your knowledge of micro/macro/metrics other than the course exams themselves.

[italos]

so they call all the requirements together "general examination", but there is no separate exam testing your knowledge of micro/macro/metrics other than the course exams themselves.

 

This is also the impression I had about preliminary examination.

[paradox3696]

Some schools (eg, Washington State Uni) dont even require you to take the prelim in core theory (macro or micro) if you pass the courses with A's.

 

Perhaps, there are even schools where preliminary exam is NOT even part of the requirement as long as you pass the courses.

[italos]

Some schools (eg, Washington State Uni) dont even require you to take the prelim in core theory (macro or micro) if you pass the courses with A's.

 

Perhaps, there are even schools where preliminary exam is NOT even part of the requirement as long as you pass the courses.

 

Can you provide us with some examples?

[paradox3696]

Can you provide us with some examples?

 

hmmmmmmmmm I thought my example of Washington State UNi is one of those progmams that does NOT require you to take preliminary if you score A in both Macro and Micro courses. This was confirmed by telephone with one of the current phd students there.

[israelecon]

according to what i posted about princeton, princeton is an example too, and you don't even need an A.

[Mr.Keen]

Berkeley and MIT do not have those examinations either. At Duke you are exempt if your GPA is above certain cutoff. At Chicago we have three core examinations: macro, micro and econometrics.

[asquare]

Princeton doesn't have prelims in the first year classes :) The requirement is that you pass the first year courses, and the final exams are part of the grade in the courses, of course.

 

For schools that do have prelims, they are not final exams in the regular courses. But Princeton and some other schools don't have prelims separately from regular courses

[israelecon]

does anyone think that there is an advantage to the prelim system?

the way i see it is that it is more a way for the school to weed out students they don't want, rather than a way to teach the students more. also it seems to me that the non-prelim students will get a headstart with their second year research paper (or at least a vacation) during the summer after first year while the prelimmers spend the summer studying.

[paradox3696]

does anyone think that there is an advantage to the prelim system?

the way i see it is that it is more a way for the school to weed out students they don't want, rather than a way to teach the students more. also it seems to me that the non-prelim students will get a headstart with their second year research paper (or at least a vacation) during the summer after first year while the prelimmers spend the summer studying.

 

yea i ditto that.

 

U can relate that to a scenerio when a candidate is defending his/her master thesis or doctoral dissertation (oral presentation) and the candidate is being told that you are expected to answer any questions that may or maybe not part of the courses you have taken for that degree. Failure to answer the questions in a satisfactory manner might NOT get your degree LOL.

[asianeconomist]

you are expected to answer any questions that may or maybe not part of the courses you have taken for that degree. Failure to answer the questions in a satisfactory manner might NOT get your degree LOL.

 

That's just cruel, or is it Grad school ? :D

[italos]

I think Columbia also has preliminars.Here is the program description

 

Students must successfully complete the following courses: G6211-G6212. Microeconomic Analysis, I and II; G6215-G6216. Macroeconomic Analysis, I and II; G6411-G6412. Introduction to Econometrics, I and II; and G6410. Mathematical Methods for Economists.

At the end of the first year, students are required to certify by written examination in microeconomics, macroeconomics and econometrics. The examinations are given during the one-week final examination period in May. Certification examinations may be repeated only once, in September at the beginning of the second year.

[guan]

A department may also want to have relatively easy grading in the courses themselves, for example if they are offered to PhD students from other departments (political science, public policy, etc.). A system with separate course finals and prelims allow them to do this while ensuring the quality of the economics department's own students.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I am currently in my first year of the MA Economics program at the University of San Francisco and am trying decide whether to continure to a PhD program in Economics or Finance or return to the money management industry in which I have a couple years experience. In the program here at USF they have ensured us that the professor that teaches the class will write the comps unless you are just in one of the un-lucky years where a professor switches out of teaching a class. Although I strive to look at economics more as a sophisticated set of tools you can apply to almost any question you can think of, as as opposed to a fixed curriculum, I definitely like the idea of my professor writing the comps. As I ponder whether a Phd is right for me, because I undoubtedly live and breath economics and investing, I often wonder how the final exams I will be taking in my terminal MA program compare with preliminary exams at say, chicago, columbia, stanford, george washington, santa cruz or berkeley. I have a lot of confidence in my ability to pass the comps I will be taking after this year and have seriously honed my economic intuition and become much more mathematically sophisticated just through my first semester of Math Econ and Micro Theory. I am just beginning my Macro and E-metrics classes. Can anyone help me gauge how much I would really have to step it up to excel throughout a top PhD program, and more specifically pass the preliminary exams ahead of the middle of the pack. I am hoping someone who has completed an MA before a PhD or is familiar with preliminary exams cam help. I have good grades and I know a few people from our program pursue a PhD each year or two, recently berkeley and cornell, but have been unable to contact any of them yet. I basically have to decide now if I would like to take more applied courses next year like options and futures and international finance to get a job or more PhD prep stuff like real analysis and mathematical statistics. Any thoughts would be much appreciated. The state of industry has a lot to do with this desicion too, but I'm treating that as constant for this plea. Thanks a bunch.