juliep

Here at Carlos III every offer comes with funding, and only the first deadline has passed (and historically, they still make a non-negligible number of offers for the other deadlines). But if the goal is to go to the US behind, this is not so common. Don't know if it's impossible, it's just not usual, normally here people want to stay for the PhD, so no history on this. Paris and Toulouse usually don't give money for the first year but at least it's free, and both are very good masters (Toulouse attrition rate is pretty high though if you want to go on with them)(Paris I don't know). I heard about the Eiffel's scholarship for students from developping country but I am almost sure deadline was very early. Maybe Germany also? Or Louvain? (EUI and Bocconi deadlines are passed, funding or not)

Sure, we haven't been hurt in the stipend, but we keep hearing about those "budget cuts" without knowing exactly where they apply. I guess it's harder to travel for conferences, to get new computers, stuff like that, but given that I am only a second year and I haven't asked for anything extra, I don't know much. We had a mail that they were clsing the access to some databases that were not used very much, but then a friend is trying to get acess to a new database and they just asked him to write a small thing/project to justify the need. Maybe it is just rationalization (closing useless databases to give more money to the ones we really need) or maybe it is worse I don't know. We still have as many seminars as before, we still have sandwiches after the seminars ;-) , we still have the visit of "catedraticas de excelencia" who are very big shots who come and visit one year/ 6 months, and I don't know how it works but I'm not sure why those very big guys would choose to visit Madrid if they were not paid. And this is cool cause, at least in micro theory, they organize reading groups, so you can interact with them. But the overall motto is "budget cuts". I was mentionning TI financial problems rumors because it might have been related to the possibility of getting funded from the second year on, but I actually had no clue and I have been proved wrong in this thread, so that's ok. We have the sun!!!! ;-) Cheap sangria and tapas, nice terrasses, affordable prices, viva Madrid!

Well this is a bit pessimistic, it can go up to 1/2 (even more one year) and it fluctuates. Out of the ones who didn't stay, some had dropped out. The thing is, there is no fixed number, so if everybody meets their expectations, everybody could stay in principle. Of course you cannot totally abstract from the relative ranking, but if you are good and manage to assimilate the material, you will not be kicked out because by bad luck you arrived in an incredible talented year let's say. Also I have the feeling they are shifting (new PhD and Master director since mid last year) towards admitting more people to take the qualifyers, which means, letting you the opportunity to catch up on bad grades at the beginning of the year and on students that had a master or were better prepared. But let's see what they do this year. But for sure the whole first year is a race to manage to stay and you study a lot. And consequently, you learn a lot.

You should try to contact student at Tinbergen, I am also from Carlos III so we can just give the point of view of this side. I heard (completely unverified rumour) that Tinbergen is having huge financial problems in the past 3 years and that the first year cohort have decreased from 20 people to 8 (maybe because they don't give much funded offers anymore and that unfunded candidates decline, I don't know). But that the first year cohort is 8 compared to 20 in the previous years is sth you can check o the website, my firend did, not me personnaly so cross check. And if this issue is real, maybe landing a funded position as PhD student from an unfunded first year position is not as easy as it was 3 years ago. Just guessing, check with people there. For sure they offer more optional courses than here, I have seen that too. Then if you want to do a specific topic, and there are some faculties working on that, you will be able to do it even though there is not a specific topic course on it (which is better of course but not necessary, you work on whateer you want). Just a correction: in the website they say that in the second year you have to specialize in 2 out of the 4 subfields (micro, macro, metrics, IO) but it's not true, you pick 8 courses, the ones you want. But I would have liked more choice in the topic courses. There is also some variances with years, according to who is visiting and can do some topic or math class on this or that.

Well, I entered at UC3M pretty convinced I wanted to do macro, and now I completely switched to micro so who knows... I hadn't done a master in economics though (nor an undergrad actually), so I had no clue really. There are usually 4 seminars a week (micro - macro - econometrics/applied - and one surprise, that they ironically called iid, economists are so fun) so you will have time to change your mind if you want to. For sure you don't have a supervisor at the beginning of the master, and basically the first year, you don't go so much to seminars and you don't talk to teachers (nobody did in my year but apparently someone did in the next year and felt the faculty not so supportive) because I think faculties consider that the first year is not a year for research. It's just intense learning and selection also in my opinion. You have to train to get good grades and get the "technical bases" of economics and that's all. But I don't think it is very different from other PhD programs? The second year is very different though. You are strongly encouraged to go to as many seminars as possible, talk to faculties, and go to reading groups (again, micro, macro, econometrics). For instance, I am now going both to micro and macro reading groups even though I am sure about my micro inclination, because I find it useful, and the macro reading group is really nice and "relaxed" (in the sense I feel it easier to intervene even though you don't have the question of the century)(but maybe it's just my personal opinion), but very very well structured by an excellent assistant professor. So in macro there are a couple of super good assistant professors that are very very very accesible. There is also a full professor with many good publications who is really easy to talk to. As a result, many people in macro are with him and I don't know if it means that the others are not accessible or just that the rumour passes from year to year to go with him? But there are many other teachers who have interesting CVs that I'm sure would receive you if you'd talked to them. Micro well is a little bit less relaxed but still I find there are many options to go with (and some faculties are really really impressive). I am starting to talk seriously to teachers only so I will have a bigger picture later. Everybody will receive you and give you advice about your research ideas but I don't know how easy it is to have one of the biggest guys as a fixed advisor though. The problem in micro would be that there is like a big dichotomy between the applied and theory people (and I have the impression that the department is quite theory oriented, but again, it might be because everybody go to talk to the theory people because they are the ones we had like teachers so it's easier. There are a lot of applied people that I am starting to check, but it's like 2 worlds I don't know). Econometrics I don't know much, this is the big strenght of the department, you have many really big guys, but there are very theoretical. For theoretical econometrics for sure you will find great advisors because those big guys take many students. Then not everything is perfect, some older students complained sometimes, and also about the fact to try not to get the same advisor as someone who will be on the job market the same year cause the competition will be too tough. And also some complained that their advisor was not involved enough, but also we got meetings with some faculties about how to start research and they told us they were considering that here students were not pushing enough their advisors.... So the truth must be in the middle, with a lot of variance. But for sure to find your advisor, you will have to make the job in the 2d year to convince sbdy that your research idea is good (maybe not if you are not staying for the PhD and therefore the requirement is lower and anyway it would means just stay some months with the advisor)

So given that nobody is taking over and replacing me in answering (I recognize some current first-year on this thread who are being lazy...), here I go again. I am in the second year. It's better if you ask specific questions I think, regarding the previous ones: - average age beginning of the first year: maybe 24-25? 1/3 younger- direct from undergrad (as young as 21); more than 1/2 who did a master (and sometimes worked 1 year or 2) around 24-25. Some isolate cases (like me ;-) ) who are older, who worked more time, or had the draft, or worked + have a master or have studied more than one field... - preparation: well, already mentionned before, more than 1/2 have already a master (in my year at least), and they make up the big chunk of the ones who are accepted to go on with the PhD (they are various exceptions of course and in such a small cohort, nothing is very representative) - level of course... well... very quantitative (in the sense involved in math), very intense, a lot to learn in one year. In the second year, it's more research-oriented, discussion of papers, less intense (and it's not what decides of your future anyway, this is the first year). Especially a lot of material I think, to assimilate in a small amount of time. Therefore, big advantage for the people who have already covered part of the material (I don't have comparison with other universities but very involved in econometrics especially, very theoretical. econometrics is a strenght of the department) (and micro pretty tough also). - matlab: in Macro 3 we have a big project to do with Matlab, find the value function through different approaches, present it bla bla bla. That's all. Then in the 2d year maybe if you pick more macro courses I think, but I'm not in macro. I think the department is very good and everybody is paid since the first year, which is not always the case in Europe. Then the first year is very tough and it is not easy to go on for the PhD, be prepare to dedicate a big amount of time to study. What's your background? Do you already know what wouldbe your field? Macro if you asked for Matlab?

Hi Well... "Neighborhoods" is a big word... Getafe is not that big, and accomodation not hard to find, so obviously the closest to the uni the better, I am leaving 3 minutes in walking distance to the uni and I was happy with that when I was going out of our office late at night. Las Margaritas is a little far I guess, most people in Getafe this year were around,( if you go to google maps) calle Madrid (the main street, with all the shops), maybe between calle Daoiz and calle Ramon y Cajal. You can go to Madrid with the Cercanias station Las Margaritas, but also with Getafe Centro. There is a building close to calle illustracion and paseo de la estacion where many people from the program were living and sharing flats, there might be some sharing there too, this is a new building so flats are very good. Prices are btw 300 and 350 all included (well usually charges are apart, I made the addition here) Juan de la Cierva is the metro station but this metro just go around the south suburb, so not always very useful except to go to the big shopping center Parque Sur. As long as you stay btw Juan de la cierva and the university is good (or a little bit further) but then you will start being far for no compensation in terms of lively nieghborhoods. What is lively is calle madrid between Calle Daoiz and calle jardines. are you interested in knowing if there is some flat sharing organized? In this case you can write me a private message.

Well... Tough question, but obviously the one in which most people are interested... I think the level of people arriving in the master is VERY heterogenous, so for some it will be easy and for others pretty tough... In general this is a tough year and everybody is studying hard. Nothing is impossible but the B average is not as easy to reach as it seemed in th beginning. i think they are somehow flexible, to see who is doing progress (like if you start with 3 Cs because everything is new to you but the do better, even without reaching totally the B average they might let you do the qualifyers), but I cannot promess anything or speak for them obviously ;-) I think usual recomendations work: - living close to the uni - dedication to the study - allowing you breaks to avoid the burn out, and "intelligent" breaks, like doing sport for example (well... I have also had many "stupid" breaks like leading to a hangover next morning ;-) not ideal to be productiv after) - study in group and not stay alone with your problems, interact with other students, TAs Then I will be able to say more next year when we will see 1/ who is allowed to sit for the quals in September (careful!!!! High probability that quals will be in July next year) 2/ who passed the quals and is actually allowed to stay for the PhD I don t know if I answered your question? This is a tough year but this is everywhere and I think it is worth it!!!

hey everybody! I ve seen the message of pkl212 on the other thread and found this one. I am a current first year and I recommend living in Getafe for the first year. After that, half the class will move to Madrid more or less, but the first year is pretty intensive and anyway there is not much time to go out (from time to time but not all the time) so spending less in the rent plus living very close to the uni is a good idea I think.

Hey pkl212! Well your question is quite large actually ;-) So I don t really know where to start but briefly this is a tough year with lots of study, but this it everywhere. So be prepared for one year with no much going out (we are doing stuff regurlarly though don't worry), a lot of commitment to study, but then we are seeing second years and they are much more relax. I recommend to live in Getafe and not in Madrid for the first year. Please feel free to ask more detailled questions...?

ok, I ll check for UC3m if I find more Ideas, I checked it VERY QUICKLY so I may be wrong, I just checke the PhD placement and I think it is not that good, not a lot of "relatively famous" name, at least in EUrope, I know the context is difficult, and I saw 2 Carlos III that draw my attention because I could not see those names in the teacher directory here, and actually they are jsut visiting teacher, not tenure track, so I don t know at what point this is good, and it might be the case for any of the other placement registered on the page. So if you re not sure about going to the states, keep the option of staying in the best terminal program you can? BGSE, no, this is not one year, well yes, but there is the MAS after the first year, another master, it is like the second year of people going on for the PhD there or wanting to apply to the States as well, as it is too soon to apply in December of the first year, you have no grades, no LOR ususally. But apply EARLY as they are very bad at funding, this costs 12k a year, applying in March I just got a 25% tuition waiver, maybe it was my profile, but I think it was everybody in the result thread also at that time of the year, and very few TA (that would give you extra money) is given (maybe easier as you speak spanish but still i think the few TAs are given very early). COmpared with the 100% tuition waiver of carlos III and the scholarship we receive... Well depending if fuinding is an issue for you. But BGSE is definetely a great great program.

Yes, I think PSE and TSE (Toulouse) also do a very good job at sending to the US, but... they are very competitive and it might be diffficult to stand out in the cohort. I think all the masters of this list are academically oriented, at least Toulouse, Paris, Louvain, carlos III, UPF (I think all but I know more those programs). Obviously you also have people who want to go to the private sector but it does not impede that courses are highly theoretical and that they are regarded as preparation for PhD. For instanceToulouse, the master cohort is big, and in the end just like 20 maybe go on, but all the courses are PhD Courses. My micro teacher "recently" graduated from here, he told me that mostly French people came to have a master and international were willing to go on a PhD. Here in Carlos III, adcoms are definitly looking for people going for academics, we have other masters more professional devoted to that, but this is true that during the first 2 years, people sometimes change their mind, or find it too challenging, and go to the private sector. As far as sending to the US is regarded, for Carlos III, I replied on that in the other thread about spanish woes

Hi Valerdakas, Fist of all, Gecko, I did not meet the guy yet so I will let you know, anyway applications deadline are after christmas right, out of the states, or am I wrong? (I did not apply to CEMFI) To Valerdakas, regarding going to the states, I will check it, the information I had also came from this forum, stating it was not well seen. I don t know much more but I will ask, in very recent history, nobody has gone to the states (say, last year), someone was speaking about applying this year but not sure if he will. Actually last year, nobody has left to go somewhere else I think, either people decide to go to work or if they do want to do a PhD, they stay here. So clearly, it is not in the culture of the department to do so. But then it does not necessarily mean that the teachers with which you did well or with which you worked will refuse to support you. My intuition would be that if you are one of the best student in his subject, he has no reason to prevent you from doing what you want and not writing you a good letter. So the question is more, how to get to be noticed by the teacher? The level look very heterogenous (we haven't have grades yet so who knows), people coming from undergrad, with more or less abstract math, people already having a master (and event in that the level can be very heterogenous), but people do really look very strong. So "survive", pass the exams, succeed in your qualifiers look doable. To be among the best 2 students of 3 given class (if you want 3 recon letters) might be somehow tricky. I really don t know how it works with UPF (alias BGSE, I am not sure if UAB is the same, because they just merged various stuff into BGSE and I dont know if UAB is part of that), that I think is the one which has the biggest track of sending students to the states, someone of my class come from there he jsut said that they were a lot in the class and people were very very stressed and pressure was high. But still if they do send more students, it might mean they send the best 10 students of the group, out of I dont know maybe 60-70 (not sure about the total number), maybe it s easier? Is it your main goal, transfer to the states, or just an option?

I’m back! Two days of exams so… Ok, so you want to know about funding and attrition rate at Carlos III? I had also read the past threads about it and got frightened, but still decided to go (well, I had uc3m funded vs Barcelona (ex UPF) not funded + only 25% tuition waiver so…) Ok so consider I am just in the first year, I have 3 months in the program, so I might not have a whole history, but as far as I know: the attrition rate/ cut of funding after the second year is really not a huge problem. Well, you have to study hard, you have what we call quals (= prelims in the states I guess?), and mathematically speaking you have a “high” attrition rate, but is it really people who wanted to stay is the question. Figures are more or less, between 20 and 25 persons in first year, some leave after the first year (I don t know at what point they do cut your funding, I think if you fail more than 2 subjects out of 12, but last year it just happened to one guy who failed everything and decided it was not what he wanted). This year, the number of “leavers” (don’t know how to say it in English? Drop outs?) after first year was higher that usual, like 5 I think, but out of such a small sample it depends of what people want to do. Out of those 5, none was kicked out (well, I guess that the guy who failed everything would have lost the funding though… but he left). Then after second year things are more difficult, because you really enter “PhD path”. Usually, out of the 20-25 first year students (this year we are 21), you have 10+ people staying for PhD. Don t know the exact figures, more than 10 but not much more, depending of the year. So we were wondering if there is an implicit quota, but I don t think so. It is more or less each year the number of people who really wanted to go on with the PhD, who involved themselves and study consequently. Here there is a real title “Masters” after 2 years, it is clear so it is not what adcoms are after, we have thousands of other one year masters that are more like US masters, more professional, and this one is really THE research masters. But though, maybe people can change their mind, or the fact that the programs are “separated” (masters + phd, there are 2 different heads of program) make people wonder more if they want to commit for the PhD. My point is: it is RARE that people really wanting to gon on are kiked out. How rare? Well that s where I lack history, my flatmate’s boyfriend is in the third year and he told me so, though unspecifically. I can speak of this year, 2 guys failed the qual of micro. But one of them had a very good grade on his master’s thesis (the firs two year are classes but in the second you need to produce a masters thesis that is an important part of the cursus, so you really start with research in second year), wanted to go on with macro ( I read your previous post vs failing macro vs failing micro) and the micro “department” decided to allow him to stay. The second ones had failed various subject in the first year + failed the micro qual (and maybe metrics too?) and was not allowed to go on. That’s the only one. Careful, I did not say it was easy; maybe people auto-select themselves and leave when they see they don t have good grades and won t succeed in the quals (not only, I know one that is happy to have funding for an interesting master and that could not happen in his country, and then will go back there, that is one case). There is I reckon a lot of pressure on that but I guess it is to make us study? Rules are: we have 12 subjects the first year (second year is easiest and it is electives + the masters thesis, so challenging courses, used for the quals, are during the first year), 3 by trimestre, 4 trimesters. We have 3 quals, micro, macro, metrics. You need to have an average of B to be able to sit for the quals, I think that is different from the US? This rule is always questioned, people say it is going to be suppressed, but in the end it hasn t been up to now. This is hard I heard, given that most subjects don t give A easily, so if you miss the B, then you have to catch up. And some subjects also give few Bs either, but this is hearsay, I ve just had my first exams ;-) so we ll see (well, one left to go on Thursday, and then, free!). So some people cannot sit for the quals in September (there is no june session) and have to wait until next September, that is, when you are going to start the PhD!!! And if you fail the first time (if you could sit for them the first time), no problem you have a second chance end of second year. You can also have a waiver if you get 3As in the related subject (for instance Micro 1-2-3 for Micro…). Really really rare but well. 3 classes count “less” because they have no qual, Maths I, Maths II, and Game Theory, but they still count in the average. Hope I answered your questions. Waow, I wrote a whole novel, let s hope it will serve for future applicants. I don t know how hard you would find the level coming from the US (especially a top 10), we have here two guys coming from University of Illinois and they say that, on the one hand, up to now, the rhythm is muuuuuuuuch more relaxed, in terms of number of problem sets to deliver, but not in terms of the final exams. But with their 2 previous years at Illinois they are reviewing everything, so if you are motivated, you should not worry too much I guess? Speaking of CEMFI, what were your questions? As I told you the friend of a friend is flatmate with CEMFI guys so I might be able to have hearsays. And if you have other questions don t hesitate.I’m back! Two days of exams so…

arghhh I had made a long answer and it just did not register... After having spent my night over a stupid statistics problem set I offer to answer you tomorrow ;-) Meanwhile please feel free to ask me what you want to know about uc3m, here or by pm!

At Carlos III where I am, up to now no changes. I know someone who knows someone (ah ah) who is flatmate with CEMFI students so I ll try to know something if I can.

I heard MIT had some "open class" on the internet, so lectures (I mean courses lecture) for free, or in itunes university there are podcast of classes of a lot of things, like berkeley...

Note that the "regular" funding is above all for the US, if you do not manage to enter some PhD in the US as good as what you are targeting and that you do want to do it in Europe, this is different. Cause most of European PhD have more separation between the master part and the "reserch part", you still have to do the master (I mean, the first 2 years) where you gonna do your PhD, so it amounts to a 5-year program like in the US, but: - it is much less common to have funding the first 2 years - sometimes it is used as a stepping stone to go to the US, so can also be a good back up plan if it does not work as you want, but still funding issues.. And anyway if you are already doing a master at Bocconi maybe you don t need it. Look at Toulouse, PSE (but those 2 schools are very cheap, so the problem is mainly to deal with your living expense), UPF. LSE is different, the masters (very expensive, almost no funding possibilities) are separate from the MPHIL path (that is, PhD), where you are funding. But here again, it is much harder to get admitted to the MPHIL. - some have fundings I think you should check, like Tilburg Tinbergen... Here (Carlos III) we are also fully funded from first year. Anyway good luck with the US! Funding is somehow "easier" there

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/laurie_santos.html great thread! Thanks, I've just watched Hans Rosling, exciting!!!! The one of Laurie Santos from Yale about what human are doing irrational mistakes and what about monkeys behaviour when they are confonted with the same issues is really enthralling too! I think it would be great if people kept posting on this thread on new TED talks they liked even though they are not completly related to economics? Hope to see more soon!

Hi, I'm heading to UC3M, starting the program in September. So... - regarding funding: all students are funded, that means tuition waiver + around 1000 euros per month from Sept. till June, during 5 years+ health insurance at least 1st year, don't know for the others. Some old threads here spoke about people loosing the funding and forced into going to Complutense, it seems over now, current students I've been writting to told me it was ok if your grades were ok, and if you're aiming transfering to the US anyway your grades need to be more than ok. - admission prospects... I could comment on my profile if you want but that's just one, I could telle you more after September seeing the profiles of the others students (we are 25-26). But write me a PM at that time, I will have forget. - possible outcomes after the master... Well again write me during the year cause I'm not in yet. From hearsays (sample of 1 or 2 persons, so you see...) not so many students transfer to the US, it can be badly seen from the teachers. Most people wanting to go on with a PhD do it there. Again, this is a small sample. I think this is one of the master with the better funding (I mean, all students are funded) but if it is hard to transfer to the US afterwards you don't care. Apart from UC3M, I thing BGSE (Barcelona) has more a record of sending master students in top PhDs, but funding is much worse: - cost of the master 12k euros per year, 1st year and 2d year are independant so no automatic acceptance (actually this is considered as 2 masters, with different names). They have tuition waiver and partial tuition waiver + TA to get extra funding but I don't know how many students do get them. I think there is a high correlation with your application timing, good funding are given at the beginning. I applied quite late and only got a 25% tuition waiver. That's why I chose UC3M, I would have chosen BGSE otherwise. Also from hearsays, star teachers who are really connecte in the US are very demanded, that is their class is usually chosen by everybody and you can have classes of 60 people (again, posts said contradictory stuff about number of people in the master), maybe all wanting a letter from them, it might be harder to create a relationship. That's why I told myself to consolate myself to have rejected BGSE for UC3M ;-) I really don't think I will try the US again in 2 years given that I am already "old" (28) but who knows if I see I have the possibility to get good LORs I may venture into it again. I really don't know about funding for the others. Well no, I know for France, PSE and TSE do not provide funding for masters, just for the PhD. You have to take into account that tuition are close to zero. Costs of living in Toulouse are not so high, in Paris well yes it's higher. Actually I realized that you did not mention PSE. PSE is definitly sending students to the US regularly, they have a lot of good teachers. The thing is, I think it is extremely competitive because, still more than TSE, you have all the students coming from French "Grandes Ecoles" who had a really heavy math-preparation and I heard it may be hard to stand out (euh… don'T know if you say it like that). I also know that Louvain in Bruxelles happens to send students to the US, nto that much but teachers may really involve themselves, one of my LOR writter told me he managed to send a student to Yale the previous year. I think tuition are cheap. Funding is not that common in first year but my friend managed to get a TA equivalent to a small stipend, so enough to cover living expense.

A quick answer because I don't have very accurate info but my main adviser asked me if I did not want to apply for a political science PhD instead of econ. I know you speak about Sociology but I think this is the same dilemma. Both fields are getting closer and closer to applied economics, theory of votes rsearch can be done by either econ or political science or sociology PhDs. he told me that it was really really close, and that as I had a solid math background I will be chosen over many applicants that are less math-oriented. So what I understand is that those fields are shifting, adcoms requirements are shifting, but that applicant pool does not shift "equivalently" (is it correct?). That's why I guess that what you consider as a not-so-solid math background for a competitive economics application will turn into a solid-one for Sociology. Again, this is just hearsay from my main advisor, but he is a teacher at a top university in the US so I guess he knows something. And so according to him, it may forbid you some research fiels but in terms of applied econ in those subject this is definitly worth it. I know there is a new program at Princeton joint between econ and political sciences departments aiming at that two, I don,t know if this one is much less competitive than the econ one though. So my 2 cents: I applied to econ programs cause I was really not sure what were my interests but if you know them, I would say that yes, top Sociology department ranks much higher than 40-50 ranked econ department. Of course, you should closely check the description of the target programs, talk to students, teachers... to confirm that.

For the master card, I really see it as a "safety", you can apply both to PhD programs you want to go too and the masters (if you are not inclined towards Europe, there is Canada) in case it does not work as you wish. I'm sure you will enter some PhD, the question is till what ranking are you ok with, and from which ranking you would prefer to spend an additional 1-2 years doing a master/ RA/ graduate courses as said Tm (but will those graduate courses be outside of your university to get new LORs?) to strenghten your profile and going to a "better" program that may open you more doors, give you contacts with a broader research department... If you see it "literally (...) as the start of my career" you do not care about 2 extra years because you will learn new stuff, meet new students, new faculties.... I really do not say you won't make it to the top 20, it is really in case you do not reach what you want (maybe you don't know it yet but it is worth thinking of ot) There are also threads about: is it better to be one among the stellar students at a top program or the star of a lower-ranked program (question of the emulation of a more competitive pool, your future co-authors...)

About Canadian Programs http://www.www.urch.com/forums/phd-economics/126752-canadian-program-consultant-open-business.html Post from Elliphant, the title says it all http://www.www.urch.com/forums/phd-economics/130724-advice-2011-tips-low-ranked-undergrads-soft-majors-internationals.html

By "expected results" I meant that some people with stellar letters from "not-conventional" LOR-writters (I don't know how to put it, it means not completly credible according to adcoms in a way or another) got disappointed, they did not get the universities they wanted. I don't know which level was it, top 10, 20, 50... Every case is different. But two "similar profiles" with the same grades, same commitment to research, stellar letters... can have different results. What you can (should?) do, speaking with your teachers about what range of school you can hope to reach, they should have an idea...? Trying a little above of that, and maybe applying simultaneaously to Canadian/ European masters. Everything depdns on your goals? Do you want to be an academic at a strong/ honnest research department? IN that case, given the tough job market competition, you may prefer spend 2 additional years in a master that will open you other doors than going to less-godd ranked programs? I don't know where to draw the threshold. When you see the profiles of students admitted in the top 20, much come from: - top US universities (don't know again where is the threshold) - Canadian/ European Masters - top students form top universities all around the world, students really competing against each other among a same nationality - again correct me all if I'm wrong and you always have expcetions but speaking about the majority that's it. I know Elliphant had made a post "advice if you do not come from a top university" I' m going to look for it. Is funding an issue? And time? Are you "old"? There is lots of information in a thread about Canadian Masters, and speaking about Europe, some are cheap/ almost free (look at Toulouse if you're into IO), and some give funding (not sure for the UK, I know Carlos III in Spain very good at econometrics so when you sepak about "mathematical economcis" you can be itnerested in that, gives scholarship, that's where I'm heading to, and Barcelona some TA if you apply early. Don't know for the rest but again, thousands of threads here). Don't know very well how to get an RA from a connected teacher from a university you do not belong to, if you can do it, working a year with him, getting a good LOR, if things do not turn out well, can be a good idea? I'm sure that to be an interesting case for TM to see if a really strong profile like you but with not-so-well connected LOR can succeed would be a consolation if you don't get what you want though... Anyway good luck I am playing the "pessimistic" card to tell you what you can do to improve your profile, maybe you won't need that, let's hope!