Current Undergraduate Profile Evaluation: Advice for Grad School

[Econhead]

GPA over the last two years seems like a subpar and situational metric. Speaking from my own profile, I took Real Analysis, using Baby Rudin, in my first semester of undergrad, due to advanced standing from high school. My last two years feature a study abroad experience and me taking required general courses outside of my majors. I would have to guess major GPA is more important, with an emphasis on traditionally more difficult coursework.

 

This was partially my point. The assumption is that they are probably looking for a level of maturity-how did the student do in harder classes/did they receive better grades during the last two years. Although some universities, as Catrina mentioned, may ask for GPA over the last two years, it seems like a relatively benign metric. It seems like it would only really make a difference at the margin. They are already looking at what grades you received in your courses, which can tell them most everything they need to know. So only in cases where they are considering admitting/not admitting based on a marginally-low GPA compared to other applicants would it seem like GPA over last 2 years would make any difference in admittance.

[mmoya]

Given the difference in responses, is it even feasible to go to a top 30? even after a masters?

I do not know how the admission process works, but does it take into account people from different social economic backgrounds or individuals of a particular ethnicity group?

Correct me if I'm wrong but would admcoms focus more on progression? given that I went to alternative school during hs and my senior yr consisted of work 40 hrs a wk I did not have the exposure of different math courses or the adv academic standing as say econphd14(which is quite impressive).

If I retake Calc III and Calc II, continue do well for the other course I still have to take(linear, diff eq, intro to prob and real analysis), during my masters(that's given if I can even be accepted into a decent MS/MA program) would I still have a shot for a top 30/40 program?

I wonder if admcoms take into account different backgrounds? Does affirmative action come into play at all?

[mmoya]

I do not mind taking an extra two years(or more) after I graduate with my BA to retake certain classes, take more classes as a non degree student or post bac, do a masters, or anything else that may boost my credentials and demonstrate that I have the skill set to attend a top 30/40 university

[Catrina]

Is there some reason that you would prefer taking classes after graduation to delaying graduation?

 

After graduation you will no longer be eligible for Pell grants and financial aid, which given your background I assume that you probably are. Also, if you take the classes while still an undergrad, they would count towards your GPA and help raise it. A GPA below 3.5 would pretty much automatically disqualify you at some schools. Not only that, at least at my school, if you retake the class before graduating, the previous grade will not be counted in your GPA at all, meaning that the C+ will turn into an A (if you get one) for GPA calculations. That would be a much better idea than taking the classes after graduation.

[Randy Smith]

I disagree. The best math grades I got in my undergrad are Bs plus some C+ about 10+ years ago. I retook Calculus III and LA in summer 2012, and DE, Multivariable Calculus, PhD Micro I, Macro I and grad Prob and Stat I all five classes in fall 2012, and got all A and A+. You can as long as you work hard and know you are good at it.

 

huaxue09, are you not at a top-100 university? There is a huge disconnect between getting those undergrad grades in math and then getting an A in PhD Micro. Maybe you didn't work very hard in undergrad, maybe you had family issues, who knows. "Knowing you are good at it" is fine if you are actually good at it, but some people just aren't, and I think you are the exception that proves the rule.

 

This!!!!

 

That jayalthouse person has six posts, all negative, no constructive criticism, just telling people to give up without reason.

OP as you can see from other posts here, people have overcome this, top 30 is still a reach, but the advice you have received is a starting point. You are taking real analysis right now, a good grade in that and all your advanced math classes is a start.

 

jayalthouse does seem kind of crazy, and clearly he has some issues. He did give a reason though--the math is very, very hard, and every year tons of people who majored in math and got top GPAs from elite schools find that they just can't hack it in economics. If your grades are a little shaky, should you still try? Perhaps. If after the fifth or so math class shows little evidence of mathematical maturity, should you press on? It's up to you, but you need to be realistic about your goals and recognize that it's exceedingly rare that someone with your record of mathematics courses is going to be able to get through one of these programs with a degree. Frankly, locking yourself into this world that's obsessed with getting an economics PhD and wants to imply that there is no other worthwhile way to live your life is unhealthy. A lot of people think that this is what they want, and rather than question that assumption (often a bad one, given the huge disconnect between undergrad and grad courses), this forum pushes a lot of people into directions that are ultimately detrimental to them and and gives people false hope that ultimately ends in disappointment (this thread is a particularly egregious example--the PhD is clearly not for the poster and is threatening his mental health and everyone eggs him on regardless). Sure, "giving up" sounds bad, but it's a legitimate option that should be on the table (see this article: Giving Up on Unattainable Goals: Benefits for Health?).

[moneyandcredit]

I do not mind taking an extra two years(or more) after I graduate with my BA to retake certain classes, take more classes as a non degree student or post bac, do a masters, or anything else that may boost my credentials and demonstrate that I have the skill set to attend a top 30/40 university

That's what I thought of doing instead of delaying graduation, and that's what I did. I wish I hadn't thought that, and I wish I hadn't done that. Your mileage may vary.

[mmoya]

First I would love to thank everyone again for their feedback, I really take everything stated to consideration. That being said, my university would not allow me to extend graduation, but I have found an alternative: I spoke to an adviser from another university in the state who will allow me to transfer my credits over to obtain a second bachelors in math. Unfortunately I found out that pell does not cover a second bachelors but I should still be eligible for subsidized student loans and scholarships.

I figured I would complete a year at their program and take diff. eq., intro to prob., abstract algebra and analysis :)

 

I was wondering, if by any chance I notice I may do poorly in one of my analysis courses, would it be okay to withdraw and take it over again or is it better to accept a C? For instance, say if I can anticipate that I will obtain a C in real analysis, is it better to keep the C or withdraw, take it over again and get an A?

 

Furthermore, I will not even bother applying to a PhD program this coming October/November because of where I stand with math, however, given my profile, is it still feasible to apply for UBC or U of T's masters this October/November?

[Catrina]

I would withdraw rather than get a C, since you will anyway be taking it again.

[mmoya]

also, in my SOP am I allowed to mention that I pretty much rushed through math? Literally just last spring I was taking Calc I and by this spring I managed to catch up to linear(which my program does the proof based linear, not the applied linear)

[mmoya]

Thank you Catrina!!!! :) you give great advice! I really appreciate your feedback

[econphd14]

Given the difference in responses, is it even feasible to go to a top 30? even after a masters?

I do not know how the admission process works, but does it take into account people from different social economic backgrounds or individuals of a particular ethnicity group?

Correct me if I'm wrong but would admcoms focus more on progression? given that I went to alternative school during hs and my senior yr consisted of work 40 hrs a wk I did not have the exposure of different math courses or the adv academic standing as say econphd14(which is quite impressive).

If I retake Calc III and Calc II, continue do well for the other course I still have to take(linear, diff eq, intro to prob and real analysis), during my masters(that's given if I can even be accepted into a decent MS/MA program) would I still have a shot for a top 30/40 program?

I wonder if admcoms take into account different backgrounds? Does affirmative action come into play at all?

 

I'm rooting for you as I don't come from the best background either. I am a low income, first generation college student, but I've been lucky to take advantage of the opportunities made available to me by my college, including the time I enrolled as a special student during high school. Thankfully, I have had a strong support system, and I highly recommend interfacing with your school's TRIO department. Your mileage may vary, but the research experience I gained as a McNair Scholar is invaluable, and I could not recommend the program enough.

[Econhead]

also, in my SOP am I allowed to mention that I pretty much rushed through math? Literally just last spring I was taking Calc I and by this spring I managed to catch up to linear(which my program does the proof based linear, not the applied linear)

 

You can but no one gives a damn.

 

Not being mean-it is the honest truth.

[mmoya]

I'm rooting for you as I don't come from the best background either. I am a low income, first generation college student, but I've been lucky to take advantage of the opportunities made available to me by my college, including the time I enrolled as a special student during high school. Thankfully, I have had a strong support system, and I highly recommend interfacing with your school's TRIO department. Your mileage may vary, but the research experience I gained as a McNair Scholar is invaluable, and I could not recommend the program enough.

 

Hello econphd14, thanks for the support.I noticed your strong academic performance, calc II at 16 and real analysis by the first year of undergraduate is impressive and congrats on Northwestern :)

I looked into applying for McNair within my current institution, unfortunately because I am considered a graduating senior I do not qualify

are there any other research opportunities you would recommend?

[econphd14]

Hello econphd14, thanks for the support.I noticed your strong academic performance, calc II at 16 and real analysis by the first year of undergraduate is impressive and congrats on Northwestern :)

I looked into applying for McNair within my current institution, unfortunately because I am considered a graduating senior I do not qualify

are there any other research opportunities you would recommend?

 

I had a great study abroad experience at the LSE, so I would recommend a European masters. They are cheaper and shorter than American counterparts, but don't carry the same prestige, ceteris paribus. However, you may need to improve your profile to get into a program worth your time. At this point, you're best off taking/retaking more math class and applying for every RA position you can.

[mmoya]

I had a great study abroad experience at the LSE, so I would recommend a European masters. They are cheaper and shorter than American counterparts, but don't carry the same prestige, ceteris paribus. However, you may need to improve your profile to get into a program worth your time. At this point, you're best off taking/retaking more math class and applying for every RA position you can.

 

Hello econphd14, unfortunately it will be difficult to study abroad because I have to catch up. As for a summer RA I notice from your previous posts you were interviewed for a summer RA position at a top 5 university, would it be possible to know the details? I would love to apply for the same RA position if possible

[mmoya]

I will try to aim for a masters UBC, U of T, or somewhere in Canada when I apply this October, along with several masters in statistics as a back up. Unfortunately I do not know what European master programs compensate for financially.

I know LSE is ridiculously competitive. I have no idea how competitive some of the masters program are in Canada though

[Catrina]

Canadian MA programs seem to be quite hard to get into, especially for non-Canadians. Take a look at the profiles of those who have been accepted and rejected at those programs.

[econphd14]

Hello econphd14, unfortunately it will be difficult to study abroad because I have to catch up. As for a summer RA I notice from your previous posts you were interviewed for a summer RA position at a top 5 university, would it be possible to know the details? I would love to apply for the same RA position if possible

 

I was able to land that interview because of a conversation with an alumnus of my college who is affiliated with the department. I don't believe they are actually hiring at the moment, but I was accepted recently. Networking was key here, and it happens that my school is a feeder school to various (non-economic) grad programs at this university.

[mmoya]

after looking over the admissions and rejections, roll call, etc I did notice either a.) most of those who were accepted into UBC's Masters program were Canadian or b.) most applicants from the US applied to UBC Masters as a back up plan, their credentials were strong enough to apply to a PhD in the US.

 

I'm still going to apply, but that was definitely an eye opener. I underestimated how competitive it was and the feasibility of attending a Canadian Masters program.

That being said my only other alternative would be to apply to a masters in mathematics or statistics instead for this upcoming october. That being said, if I can acquire funding for a masters, would a masters in mathematics or statistics really help or would it be a waste of time if I'm looking towards applying at Top 30? I'm concerned because that is delaying two and a half years: 1yr doing post bac and the other year and a half would consist of completing a masters in math or stats.

 

This summer I will be taking diff eq and intro to prob. This Fall I will be taking Advance Calc I and a Graduate lvl Micro Theory class and spring I plan to take Advance Calc 2.

if accepted into the masters in mathematics at my university, I will begin Fall 2015 and be expected to complete

1. MAA 5228 Modern Analysis 1
   
2. MAA 5229 Modern Analysis 2
   
3. MTG 5316 Introduction to Topology 1
   
4. MTG 5317 Introduction to Topology 2
   
5. MAS 5311 Introduction to Algebra 1
   
6. MAS 5312 Introduction to Algebra 2
   

I know Topology would be a great signal, but that's if I am successful. A lot of the classes I am expected to take will not be applicable to econ, and though I love math, given my profile, I'm not the best at it(though I do not know if a lot of my poor performance is due to rushing math. I jumped from Calc 1 to the proof based linear alg course within a yr).

If I'm looking to aim to the Top 30 range, I do not know if after obtaining a masters in math or stats would even get me there? I just would like to verify how feasible everything is

 

Thank you so much for the feedback! It has been very helpful

[setsanto]

If you are worried that rushing math is what led to your string of bad marks before, why are you thinking of doing so again?

 

If Algebra is something that truly interests you, by all means take it. Just remember that it really doesn't mean much to an adcom. The same goes for Topology II, at a certain point you do need to start thinking like an economist and determine if MC > MB. To me, I notice a weakness in the economics grades in your profile. In terms of PhD Econ admits, the only thing worse than appearing to be bad at math is to appear bad at econ. I would encourage you to get a few more econ classes under your belt in addition to the PhD Micro class rather than rushing headlong into the core pure math sequence.

[mmoya]

Thank you for you're feedback, that was the concern I had, up to a certain point I did not know if it would really boost my credentials. That being said, should I apply to a masters at all this October? Are there any benefits to boosting my profile by attending one?

 

Given that I am no where near competitive to even dare apply to a PhD this coming October 2014, what should I do? By Summer 2015 I should have up to Adv Calc 2, aside of the PhD Micro Theory course, I will definitely take you're advice to complete more econ courses but I still would not apply to a PhD program until October 2015, after summer if I did not apply to a masters, I do not know what else to do besides wait until I hear from which programs I will be accepted and rejected from.

Perhaps sticking to post bac and stacking up on more math and econ along the way would probably be my best bet? My university allows me to take PhD econ courses so long as a satisfy the prereqs.

 

If I am successful in diff eqs and intro to prob this summer, do well in Adv Calc I and PhD micro theory course this fall(only those two for fall instead of a heavy course load so I can actually o well in them), try to ace Adv Cal II and regression analysis over spring 2015(where I would only enroll in those two classes, again, not stack up a heavy course load), retake calc III and take stochastic processes summer 2015, and take two other economic PhD courses that Fall 2015, by october 2015 would applying to Top 30 be feasible?

 

 

If you are worried that rushing math is what led to your string of bad marks before, why are you thinking of doing so again?

 

If Algebra is something that truly interests you, by all means take it. Just remember that it really doesn't mean much to an adcom. The same goes for Topology II, at a certain point you do need to start thinking like an economist and determine if MC > MB. To me, I notice a weakness in the economics grades in your profile. In terms of PhD Econ admits, the only thing worse than appearing to be bad at math is to appear bad at econ. I would encourage you to get a few more econ classes under your belt in addition to the PhD Micro class rather than rushing headlong into the core pure math sequence.

[setsanto]

Thank you for you're feedback, that was the concern I had, up to a certain point I did not know if it would really boost my credentials. That being said, should I apply to a masters at all this October? Are there any benefits to boosting my profile by attending one?

 

My gut feeling to this question is yes. Right now you have a B+ in your most advanced econ theory classes. In a PhD program, you have to score high marks in relation to people who scored high marks in undergrad. What about your profile would suggest to an adcom that you are able to do that, if you are currently barely above the median on the grade distribution in your undergraduate classes? I think if you did a master's and completed the core sequence at an MA level and aced every single class, you might have a chance at some PhD programs in the T50 range. I say that last bit based on the profiles of other people that I've seen on this site, and assuming that you ace every single math class you take between now and then.

[Catrina]

Hi Mmoya,

 

I agree with Setsanto that doing the math masters sounds like a terrible idea. Someone who struggled a lot with undergrad math will almost certainly do poorly in graduate math. I would generally say that doing a math masters is only a good idea for those who have done well in math previously, but either want to become theorists and/or want to get a masters to make up for coming from a low-ranked undergrad or something. Basically, getting a masters in math when you don't already have excellent math grades is a terrible idea.

 

I understand that you would like to go to a top-30, but I think you may need to scale back your expectations somewhat. You aren't likely to get into a Canadian MA, and I don't see much else that you can do to make a top-30 admission likely. However, if you do a regular US masters like to2012 did, and do really well in it, you may be able to get into the top-40. During a US masters you would also be able to take additional math classes.

[colacoca]

Alright, mmoya. As a current undergrad about to graduate from UF, I may have a better idea of what your grades mean then everyone else.

 

I think you seriously need to evaluate why you want to do an Economics PhD. Looking at your profile, it's not just that your GPA is poor, but you seem to have struggled in every class that had any chance of challenging you mathematically. I don't even think retaking courses would be too wise since you have consistently struggled with every upper level math course you have taken. I know you think that your grades don't reflect your full academic potential, and I would agree if you just had 2 or 3 B's/B+'s, but absolutely nothing in your profile tells me your ready for the rigor of even a T60 PhD program. It would be one thing if you've shown excellence at least in your economics classes, but you got B+'s in the only two economics courses at UF that were challenging. If you got a B+ in Intermediate Micro, there is no way you should take PhD Micro.

 

I hate writing this, especially since our school sends few students to econ grad school as is, but I can't have you wasting your life in your 20's. I just don't see the Economics PhD route ending well.

 

 

On a lighter note, don't let this discourage you from getting a PhD! If you really can't see yourself doing anything in life besides research, start looking into other disciplines where you could answer the questions you want to research that have less intense barriers to entry. Maybe Political Science, Sociology, Public Policy, etc. I don't how much easier this route is, and your GPA will probably hurt you a bit in whatever you do, but if you are truly interested in making it as a researcher, I personally think this is the route you need to take.

 

Sorry if all of this is either harsh or blunt, but I think a lot of people are giving you the idea that you will see success at the end of the tunnel of getting an Economics PhD and I thought it was only fair to give you, IMO, the more realistic answer.

[Econhead]

I think that Colacoca, Catrina and Setsanto are all on the right track. Perhaps this is a slightly different perspective.

 

1. Cola is correct about what your profile suggests, especially since they have experienced the same courses as you. I don't agree that this strictly means you can't succeed-as humans we often don't push ourselves where we can. If you tried your damndest and still got those grades, then I agree. It's all about motivation, though. I earned a C then a B+ in Intermediate micro (yes i retook it) because I so badly hated the professor that I didn't go to class and lost enough credit to not earn good grades. Part of this was I didn't understand the signal it was sending. I am now earning an A in Ph. D micro. Your mileage will vary - you MUST be realistic about your skills, though. If you had trouble, you need to admit that to yourself.

 

2. Your best option is an Econ NOT a Math/stat based Master's. Don't aim too high - T50/70 or unranked. Look at placements, talk to departments,. Before you commit, you need to, again, evaluate yourself and determine how you WILL perform, not how you WANT to perform. There will always be professors that are tough for one reason or another, or a course you get a B in, but you have to accept that you're going to put all your effort into getting good grades and learning the material. I think you're best option is getting into a T50 post Master's if you do well. You have to decide if this is what you want to do or not. Look at placements, and understand and decide if this is what you want.

 

3. As Cola said, don't get disheartened. No one wants to be mean, but everyone wants to be realistic. We all naturally want to be unrealistic and over-evaluate our potential, skills, and ability to perform well-no one likes to admit they perform poorly or below their own expectations. You have to start accepting now that you can't do this though. You have to be realistic. I did poorly in many math courses during my undergrad, as you, for a wide variety of reasons-one of which was that I was unrealistic about what I could handle each semester, and whether I was prepared for a course (I took higher courses before taking prereq's). As a graduate student, I have completely changed my attitude which has resulted in a change (for the better) in my performance.

 

Best of luck.