Current Undergraduate Profile Evaluation: Advice for Grad School

[mmoya]

Hello colacoca,

 

Honestly I appreciate the fact that you are blunt and share a general concern for a fellow gator. However, as far as upper level math is concern, I have gain much exposure to it besides this semester, I'm taking linear(which you know is our weed out class for math majors), and so far I'm doing good. Could having a good proof based background help compensate for my weak performance in my calculus series? I found calc I more of a nightmare than linear because going into that class I did not remember what point slope was, the parent functions of graphs, or how to do simple arithmetic such as dealing with fractions. I was in a class full of premeds most of which who had already taken AP calc in high school. I remember walking in not know literally anything that was expected knowledge and UF treats it as a weed out for premeds. As for calc 3, I was taking that class with sets and logics AND the honors empirical research class where I was teaching my self STATA while writing my first empirical paper. I had forgotten all what I learned in Stats I, so understanding how to understand and construct regressions was not fun.

A few of my friends have been recently accepted into pretty solid programs such as UC Davis and University of Iowa. The ones that were accepted into Davis and Iowa had C's/B's for their proof based courses, however, they had A's for their calculus sequence.

I would like to aim for Top 30 specific to Trade & Development. Do you think that's out of my league even if I do well in Linear, Adv Calc I/II, differential equations (which everyone tells me is ridiculously easy at UF), Intro to Prob, Regression Analysis(which should be easier to understand now that I've taken the research course), and the graduate level Micro Theory course?

As for the graduate level course, the only reason I feel as though I would do great is that my friends have taken the course and one even gave me the practice exams that he gives for his mid term and final. They have told me how to get an A in the class. I'm a transfer student, when I took intermediate micro, it was the first econ course I took at a 4yr university. I thought stacking my econ classes my first semester as a transfer student would be a great idea because I breeze right through the principle courses in community college.

 

I understand I should be realistic, but I cannot help but think a lot of my weak performance was due to catching up or making poor choices in stacking certain classes together that should have never been stacked together.

As I am in my linear alg class, I FINALLY feel as though everyone is just as clueless as I am lol. I feel as though the material is new to everyone and prior knowledge is not assumed.

 

given that, do think that is still reasonable to shoot for a Top 30/40 after post bac? If not, besides sociology, are there better alternatives? I want to to develop a plan B and C just in case econ really doesn't work out. My plan so far is to maybe apply for Stats Masters this october and work as an analyst at the world bank? I would love to work in the World Bank as well if academia does not go as planned.

 

I really love my research class, I'm currently working on my second paper. I would like to pursue something probably more rigorous than political science, but I definitely do not waste my 20's or invest so much time into something that is not worthwhile.

 

Alright, mmoya. As a current undergrad about to graduate from UF, I may have a better idea of what your grades mean then everyone else.

 

I think you seriously need to evaluate why you want to do an Economics PhD. Looking at your profile, it's not just that your GPA is poor, but you seem to have struggled in every class that had any chance of challenging you mathematically. I don't even think retaking courses would be too wise since you have consistently struggled with every upper level math course you have taken. I know you think that your grades don't reflect your full academic potential, and I would agree if you just had 2 or 3 B's/B+'s, but absolutely nothing in your profile tells me your ready for the rigor of even a T60 PhD program. It would be one thing if you've shown excellence at least in your economics classes, but you got B+'s in the only two economics courses at UF that were challenging. If you got a B+ in Intermediate Micro, there is no way you should take PhD Micro.

 

I hate writing this, especially since our school sends few students to econ grad school as is, but I can't have you wasting your life in your 20's. I just don't see the Economics PhD route ending well.

 

 

On a lighter note, don't let this discourage you from getting a PhD! If you really can't see yourself doing anything in life besides research, start looking into other disciplines where you could answer the questions you want to research that have less intense barriers to entry. Maybe Political Science, Sociology, Public Policy, etc. I don't how much easier this route is, and your GPA will probably hurt you a bit in whatever you do, but if you are truly interested in making it as a researcher, I personally think this is the route you need to take.

 

Sorry if all of this is either harsh or blunt, but I think a lot of people are giving you the idea that you will see success at the end of the tunnel of getting an Economics PhD and I thought it was only fair to give you, IMO, the more realistic answer.

[setsanto]

You keep talking about how poor your previous choices were when you stacked hard class together, yet you're making the same mistake again. PhD Micro is hard! Really hard! I understand that you had trouble with your first econ classes at a 4 year college, but honestly anyone who is aiming for a top-30 placement shouldn't be struggling with Intermediate Micro anywhere (well, maybe Harvard. Those guys do some hard ****). The fact that you struggled at all is a very bad sign. And now you're proposing taking an even harder class (PhD Micro) along with math classes that you have clearly struggled with previously?

 

The more this thread goes on, the more I have to side with colacoca. It is important to be realistic about your prospects. You currently do not have a single good mark in any of your math classes (other than precalc and trig, which for all intents and purposes are not math classes). I know that you say it is because you weren't prepared for them, but why do you think you are prepared for any of these further math classes? It is hard for me to accept that as a valid reason, when you describe taking calc 3 at the same time as an honours empirical research project and a set/logic class as a difficult semester. I'm not sure how degrees are structured in the US, but if it is anything like a usual Canadian school that sounds like a pretty standard semester to me (what were your other two classes). It is also peanuts compared to the standard PhD Micro/Macro/Metrics/Math Econ gauntlet you'll have to run in your first two semesters in a PhD program.

 

How well are you currently doing in the Lin Alg class? Do you currently have an A in the class? What is "good"?

[Econhead]

You are missing the point that is being made. No one cares how you stacked your classes or how clueless anyone else was in the class. Particularly, because no adcoms can know and only in a few rare cases do LoRs mention the former. The only signal being sent is your grade.

[mmoya]

If a PhD does not necessarily work out, I would much rather complete a masters and start working. I would like to work in research, idk if most positions that involve research in the world bank are reserved with those who have a PhD?

A plan B is to pursue a career in the World Bank, IMF, United Nations, etc. I want to engage in more research pertaining to economic development, therefore I feel as though UBC's Masters would be a better fit than a Masters program in the US.

So maybe a more reasonable plan should be to stick to doing post bac and postpone applying this october. Opt out of taking the graduate level micro theory class and adv calc 2. Instead take adv calc I and an econometrics course.

Then by Fall of 2015 I should focus more on obtaining a masters in economics rather than a PhD. I would still apply to PhD programs, but if I do not get into one I would like to attend, I should focus more on the Masters in econ and if I do a masters in econ, be done with it and work as a researcher for the World Bank.

 

I guess where I'm trying to get at is, after post bac and I take the rest of the math I am supposed to take, would applying to UBC Masters be feasible? If a decent PhD program is out of the questions, I would like to work towards a good Masters program that emphasizes on research, especially one that specializes in development.

 

You keep talking about how poor your previous choices were when you stacked hard class together, yet you're making the same mistake again. PhD Micro is hard! Really hard! I understand that you had trouble with your first econ classes at a 4 year college, but honestly anyone who is aiming for a top-30 placement shouldn't be struggling with Intermediate Micro anywhere (well, maybe Harvard. Those guys do some hard ****). The fact that you struggled at all is a very bad sign. And now you're proposing taking an even harder class (PhD Micro) along with math classes that you have clearly struggled with previously?

 

The more this thread goes on, the more I have to side with colacoca. It is important to be realistic about your prospects. You currently do not have a single good mark in any of your math classes (other than precalc and trig, which for all intents and purposes are not math classes). I know that you say it is because you weren't prepared for them, but why do you think you are prepared for any of these further math classes? It is hard for me to accept that as a valid reason, when you describe taking calc 3 at the same time as an honours empirical research project and a set/logic class as a difficult semester. I'm not sure how degrees are structured in the US, but if it is anything like a usual Canadian school that sounds like a pretty standard semester to me (what were your other two classes). It is also peanuts compared to the standard PhD Micro/Macro/Metrics/Math Econ gauntlet you'll have to run in your first two semesters in a PhD program.

 

How well are you currently doing in the Lin Alg class? Do you currently have an A in the class? What is "good"?

[Catrina]

The same point still stands. Take a look at the profiles of those who have gotten into UBC's masters programs, and then look again at yours. I just don't see it being very likely that you could get into that type of masters program. If you are absolutely positive that you want to stick with economics and wouldn't consider a public policy PhD, then I think that a regular US applied economics masters may be your only possibility. If you want to do that, then I would focus more on trying to improve your GPA, and possibly retaking some math courses, rather than on taking more math. US MA programs don't require higher-level math, but they do require a really solid understanding of calculus and you will have a much easier time getting into one with a better GPA.

[mmoya]

Hello Catrina,

how do I look up the profiles for students applying to specific schools?

 

I looked up UBC under the Profiles and results 2014 thread but most of them seem to be applying to PhD.

How do I look up a program and it's Masters?

 

 

The same point still stands. Take a look at the profiles of those who have gotten into UBC's masters programs, and then look again at yours. I just don't see it being very likely that you could get into that type of masters program. If you are absolutely positive that you want to stick with economics and wouldn't consider a public policy PhD, then I think that a regular US applied economics masters may be your only possibility. If you want to do that, then I would focus more on trying to improve your GPA, and possibly retaking some math courses, rather than on taking more math. US MA programs don't require higher-level math, but they do require a really solid understanding of calculus and you will have a much easier time getting into one with a better GPA.

[Catrina]

Try doing a search for UBC Masters.

[chateauheart]

I would like to aim for Top 30

 

I think there's a disconnect between what everyone in this thread is saying to you, and what you're interpreting.

[setsanto]

Hello Catrina,

how do I look up the profiles for students applying to specific schools?

 

I looked up UBC under the Profiles and results 2014 thread but most of them seem to be applying to PhD.

How do I look up a program and it's Masters?

 

Look it up in past Profiles and Results too. To give you an idea of how much you're underestimating the difficulty of getting in, http://www.www.urch.com/forums/phd-economics/146668-profiles-results-2013-a-2.html#post947983 that guy was rejected.

[mmoya]

Thank you Catrina and Setsanto

it is not that I am underestimating, trust me, from reading most of these responses and the advice I've received from both my friends who have been recently admitted into graduate program have been helping me realize what's worth aiming for and what's entirely out of my league.

 

Therefore considering they are graduates from UF I do weigh their result more than most profiles on urch(for schools in the US). For instance, one of my friends was recently accepted into UC Davis, and his profile was worst than this individuals profile http://www.www.urch.com/forums/phd-economics/146668-profiles-results-2013-a-2.html#post947983

my friend made a C in Linear Algebra, and a B on Adv Calc I. The Adv Calc class that he took was the engineers Adv Calc versus the proof based one. He did not have a 3.9, but he did score a 169Q. He was accepted into UC Davis full funding fellowship and TA position. He had solids LoRs and he built great research experience from the same economic research bureau I'm currently working under.

It's not that I want to be unrealistic, but sometimes acceptance/rejections can be a toss up. Sometimes it literally all depends whether you're a candidate that satisfy what that particular program is looking for.

 

Applying to a school that has a lower ranking does not imply one will be accepted. Most of the "safety" schools my friends applied to rejected them or put them on the wait list.One of my other friends was accepted into Rochester and Duke, both full funding, but rejected to a lot of his lower ranked "safety" schools. LoR, SOP, and research helped all of my friends. Most people state on this forum that LoR and SOP have little to no weight on them which is not true.

 

Also my GPA is actually not as bad as I thought it was, it's around a 3.4 close to a 3.5. I was reading it incorrectly from the website, I was reading another GPA which I thought was my cumulative GPA. Still a 3.4, even a 3.5 still sucks I know.

 

point is, I wanted to better understand which range should I apply and especially more about Canadian schools. Even if Top 30 are out of the questions I will try to apply, but from what I gathered I should focus more on Top 50 instead.

 

Look it up in past Profiles and Results too. To give you an idea of how much you're underestimating the difficulty of getting in, http://www.www.urch.com/forums/phd-economics/146668-profiles-results-2013-a-2.html#post947983 that guy was rejected.

[Econhead]

Most people state on this forum that letter of recommendation and SOP have little to know weight on them which is not true.

 

This is not quite true. Most people, including professors that have posted here, admit that SOPs mean very little-in general it appears to help at the margin when deciding between close/comparable candidates. LoRs on the other hand, are widely regarded as one of the most valuable parts of a profile. A phone call from a well known/connected professor can very quickly boost your profile. Even when considering non famous professors, LoRs that your you as the best student, best researcher, your research skills, etc. will play a major role in your application. Use the search function and you'll see what I mean.

[Catrina]

Thank you Catrina and Setsanto

it is not that I am underestimating, trust me, from reading most of these responses and the advice I've received from both my friends who have been recently admitted into graduate program have been helping me realize what's worth aiming for and what's entirely out of my league.

 

Therefore considering they are graduates from UF I do weigh their result more than most profiles on urch(for schools in the US). For instance, one of my friends was recently accepted into UC Davis, and his profile was worst than this individuals profile http://www.www.urch.com/forums/phd-economics/146668-profiles-results-2013-a-2.html#post947983

my friend made a C in Linear Algebra, and a B on Adv Calc I. The Adv Calc class that he took was the engineers Adv Calc versus the proof based one. He did not have a 3.9, but he did score a 169Q. He was accepted into UC Davis full funding fellowship and TA position. He had solids LoRs and he built great research experience from the same economic research bureau I'm currently working under.

It's not that I want to be unrealistic, but sometimes acceptance/rejections can be a toss up. Sometimes it literally all depends whether you're a candidate that satisfy what that particular program is looking for.

 

Applying to a school that has a lower ranking does not imply one will be accepted. Most of the "safety" schools my friends applied to rejected them or put them on the wait list.One of my other friends was accepted into Rochester and Duke, both full funding, but rejected to a lot of his lower ranked "safety" schools. LoR, SOP, and research helped all of my friends. Most people state on this forum that LoR and SOP have little to no weight on them which is not true.

 

Also my GPA is actually not as bad as I thought it was, it's around a 3.4 close to a 3.5. I was reading it incorrectly from the website, I was reading another GPA which I thought was my cumulative GPA. Still a 3.4, even a 3.5 still sucks I know.

 

point is, I wanted to better understand which range should I apply and especially more about Canadian schools. Even if Top 30 are out of the questions I will try to apply, but from what I gathered I should focus more on Top 50 instead.

 

Mmoya,

 

I think that you should make a point of talking to the other UF student on this thread. Maybe you all could meet for lunch somewhere and talk. In your case, your GPA isn't your main problem, although of course it doesn't help. In addition to the problematic math grades, your econ grades are problematic. How did your friend do in economics classes? Did your friend have As in any other math classes?

 

I am glad that you are getting the message somewhat regarding expectations. However, I think that you are underestimating the difficulty of getting into top-50 schools. Top-50 schools receive a lot of applications and are still quite selective. UC Irvine, for example, said in our acceptance letters that they only accepted 15% of applicants. At this point, I would be surprised if you would get a top-50 admission. I have seen people get shut out of the top 50 with much better profiles than yours.

 

BTW, nobody on this forum says that letters of recommendation don't matter. Rather, we often emphasize the importance of letters, but say that the SOP doesn't matter (I'm not sure how true that is). There have been many instances here of letters making a large difference in admissions, and I know that my letters did make a large difference in mine.

 

You are, of course, free to apply to wherever you want to, and there is randomness in admissions. However, as someone who got shut out last year, because I had unrealistic expectations and aimed to high, I will tell you that it isn't an experience that I would wish on anyone.

 

I really admire your determination. Given the degree of your determination, I think that you can make it eventually, but you need to slow down. If I were you, I would do the following:

 

1. Take no more than one math class per semester, and graduate next year. I would recommend retaking calc III in the fall, and real analysis I in the spring. Do whatever it takes to get As in both.

2. Apply this fall to regular US masters programs. Canadian programs are not for those who need remediation due to deficiencies in past performance, and you do

3. Do really well in your MA courses, especially micro and econometrics

4. Apply to PhD programs. If you have a 4.0 in your MA, I would think that you can aim for the top-50. Alternatively, given your interests in development, you could consider ARE programs. If you don't do as well in your MA, you can stop there or do what moneyandcredit did and apply to much lower-ranked PhD programs.

[mmoya]

Hello Catrina,

Thank you once again for your input, I greatly appreciate your advice.

What masters programs would you recommend? I noticed a lot of the US Masters programs are very expensive and I have not bumped into to one that provides funding.

 

 

Mmoya,

 

I think that you should make a point of talking to the other UF student on this thread. Maybe you all could meet for lunch somewhere and talk. In your case, your GPA isn't your main problem, although of course it doesn't help. In addition to the problematic math grades, your econ grades are problematic. How did your friend do in economics classes? Did your friend have As in any other math classes?

 

I am glad that you are getting the message somewhat regarding expectations. However, I think that you are underestimating the difficulty of getting into top-50 schools. Top-50 schools receive a lot of applications and are still quite selective. UC Irvine, for example, said in our acceptance letters that they only accepted 15% of applicants. At this point, I would be surprised if you would get a top-50 admission. I have seen people get shut out of the top 50 with much better profiles than yours.

 

BTW, nobody on this forum says that letters of recommendation don't matter. Rather, we often emphasize the importance of letters, but say that the SOP doesn't matter (I'm not sure how true that is). There have been many instances here of letters making a large difference in admissions, and I know that my letters did make a large difference in mine.

 

You are, of course, free to apply to wherever you want to, and there is randomness in admissions. However, as someone who got shut out last year, because I had unrealistic expectations and aimed to high, I will tell you that it isn't an experience that I would wish on anyone.

 

I really admire your determination. Given the degree of your determination, I think that you can make it eventually, but you need to slow down. If I were you, I would do the following:

 

1. Take no more than one math class per semester, and graduate next year. I would recommend retaking calc III in the fall, and real analysis I in the spring. Do whatever it takes to get As in both.

2. Apply this fall to regular US masters programs. Canadian programs are not for those who need remediation due to deficiencies in past performance, and you do

3. Do really well in your MA courses, especially micro and econometrics

4. Apply to PhD programs. If you have a 4.0 in your MA, I would think that you can aim for the top-50. Alternatively, given your interests in development, you could consider ARE programs. If you don't do as well in your MA, you can stop there or do what moneyandcredit did and apply to much lower-ranked PhD programs.

[Catrina]

Hello Catrina,

Thank you once again for your input, I greatly appreciate your advice.

What masters programs would you recommend? I noticed a lot of the US Masters programs are very expensive and I have not bumped into to one that provides funding.

 

Mine does. I'll PM you