no research experience - how badly will it hurt me?

[frankramsey]

Hi,

I'm a graduating senior applying to phd programs for fall '11.

 

My biggest concern at this point is my lack of adequate research experience. I've done "research" for my internships, but it was more or less collecting and sorting data and lots and lots of writing). I had to work concurrently throughout my undergrad years, and had to forgo RA'ing and doing research for teaching SAT's (more money for less time).

 

About the LOR: my part-timing (At one point I had to maintain about 35 hr per week) left me with no time to visit my professors. I had to eeconomize my time, and because I was better in econ than in other subjects the only office visits I made were in non-econ disciplines. I did well in some econ classes (in top 3~5 out of a big hard classes) and I'm going to ask for rec's from the professors, but I'm worried that those letters will be good and have figures, but might not be as enthusiastic in tone as I'd like them to be. Is it better to get a more personal LOR even though they are from non-econ professors??

 

After graduation I'm planning to do post-bac and take some graduate-level classes in math and econ. Or should I somehow find a way to do research? Honestly I really don't know where to start looking for research opportunities - it seems that only experienced research undertakers are needed. Any advice?

 

 

Here's a brief stat of mine:

- Top 10 univ, Econ major with Computer Engineering and Philosophy minors

- 3.37 as of now, hoping (and likely) to end with 3.45 (I have a previous post seeking advice on my low gpa); Econ GPA 3.7~3.8; CE and Philosophy a little bit lower.

- GRE not yet taken; LSAT 176. I'm a fairly good standardized test taker. How much extra point will a good GRE Math score (or GRE Econ) give me?

- Over-Represented Int'l student - would this hurt me? In college admission my ORM status did hurt (or so I was told). It also means that many of the entry-level research positions in the US are not open to me.

- No research experience; full-time teaching experiences and lots of part-times and internships

- Impersonal (probably) but good recs from professors.

- Very good rec's from former employers (still debating whether to submit one from my investment banking internship supervisor as it is fairly detailed and enthusiastic about my devotion and passion about learning new things; the other rec that I got to read is about doing "research" (data collecting and sorting) and writing up a rather lengthy brochure for the organization I worked for as well as my interpersonal skills)

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[amber4e86]

I have only 2 months of research experience that can not be called relevant in any way (was not mathematical). I think it definitely hurt my chances for some of the schools where I really wanted to go. However, I think that having taken the necessary math classes is more important than that. If I could turn back time and change just one thing about my profile, RA experience would probably be the second thing Id worry about after Math. Good luck!

[Pedxs]

Generally, I would not use the I banking LOR - this will most likely impact your profile negatively. I myself have interned at a few financial institutions, but only mentioned them in passing in the SOP. I guess some school (perhaps Harvard) would like work experience, and if that writer has a PhD, you could perhaps used his/her letter as a 4th one - first three should definitely be from academics.

 

GRE Subject Math will help if you score well (e.g. 90th percentile). I doubt they care about GRE Subject Econ.

 

RA positions are definitely possible, even if you are International. You can do OPT for 12 months (I don't think you qualify for STEM, given your major). Grades might be a problem in getting RA job though, but should be mitigated if the position is obtained through your professors' connections. Since you are at a top 10, why not try obtaining a research position there.

[tm_member]

Generally, I would not use the I banking LOR - this will most likely impact your profile negatively. I myself have interned at a few financial institutions, but only mentioned them in passing in the SOP. I guess some school (perhaps Harvard) would like work experience, and if that writer has a PhD, you could perhaps used his/her letter as a 4th one - first three should definitely be from academics.

 

GRE Subject Math will help if you score well (e.g. 90th percentile). I doubt they care about GRE Subject Econ.

 

RA positions are definitely possible, even if you are International. You can do OPT for 12 months (I don't think you qualify for STEM, given your major). Grades might be a problem in getting RA job though, but should be mitigated if the position is obtained through your professors' connections. Since you are at a top 10, why not try obtaining a research position there.

 

 

Research experience is very important, you will do better in admissions if you can get an RA position and delay applications for a year. Also, GRE Econ no longer exists as far as I am aware. Do not take the GRE Math subject test. An 800 on the GRE Q general test is all you need...

[njskatchmo]

As someone who also took the LSAT, you should note that there is a big difference in the objectives of a good score on the LSAT's vs. good score on the GRE's.

 

A score above 170 on the LSAT really seperates you from the rest of the applicants because the pool of applicants is large enough to support all sorts of people.

 

With the GRE's, a perfect score on the quant section is considered run of the mill. The applicant pool is small enough and good enough at math that they can EXPECT you to get an 800. In this sense, a high quant score (780+) serves as a gatekeeper rather somethign that will get you ahead of the pack. The best you can hope to do on the GRE quant section is keep up with the rest of the pack. It's not going to be the forum by which you can overshadow deficiences elsewhere in your application.

 

If I were you, I'd take your LSAT score and make sure to get in a few law school applications very early when you apply to PhD programs as well. This is what I did, and gave me a few options in case I didn't want to take the year off.

 

From what you are saying, it seems like you should really take some time out of school to work as a research assistant. That will give you experience and LOR's. But I'd ask for those professors to write those letters ASAP so they don't forget who you are. Or you should try and develop a relationship with those professors whose classes you did well in while you are RA'ing.

[discreetcharm]

where is your math? Real analysis, topology, etc, could boost a profile with a low GPA.

 

I don't see how much of RA work in universities is different from what you are describing: cleaning up data and writing a bit.

 

So schools can discriminate now based on you being Chinese? lol

[Guest buzios]

Why don't you stay on for the extra coursework, and to boost the signaling power of your profile.

You can approach your old professors (for the classes you did well in), and ask for some sort of RA position.

If you were one of the top 5 students in those classes, I find it hard to believe that:

1) They won't know who you are

2) They would not be confident of your ability to perform

Regardless, this would probably help with getting some research experience, as well as improving your LORs

 

Also, I think it's gotten to the point where all international students (myself included) are "over-represented." I doubt this is in any way a problem. Although it might not be as much of a benefit as it may have been a while ago... EDIT: Although I understand your point about entry level research positions (especially those involving research with the government)

[walt526]

First, the GRE Econ exam is not offered and hasn't been offered for quite some time (~8 years, I believe).

 

Second, the LSAT is completely irrelevant since they can't use it to rank applicants. Also that a 170+ score tells them is that you are MENSA-material in terms of native intelligence, but that is probably true of most applicants and it tells them nothing about your potential to do research. Back in 2003 I scored off-the-charts on it and asked about including that little factoid in passing on my application (but the score report had expired) and several people dissuaded me from doing so. In particular, I believe that Jeeves said that he thought that his Econ admissions prospects were hurt by it at schools where he applied to both PhD Econ and the JD program (e.g., Berkeley) because the Econ department saw that he was considering both academia and law as a negative.

 

Third, the GRE Math Subject Test might help a bit more than LSAT, but not much. It tests relatively shallow knowledge of a very wide range of topics (many of which have no application in economics) and the biggest challenge is time, not the subject material. And again, since most applicants will not have taken the test, it's difficult for the adcom to interpret a strong score... other than the fact that you know a little bit about a lot of different math topics and can solve those problems quickly.

[Nocephd]

regarding lor's..minimally you would need 1 great lor from a phd economist. I read many times that after you get passed the first few stages of determination, the ad-coms will generally only keep your best lor in your file. after that, most should be academics. the only exception is if your work experience directly correlates with your phd studies. For example, If you worked as a statistician for the irs or something and wanted to specialize in econometrics. In other words, i would think that non-academic letters would have to tie into your proposed area of study somehow. Outside of this, the letter of recommendation process for phd's in economics are very different than something like applying for law school where they encourage work references.

 

regarding research experience, i think tm_guru hit the nail on the head. It is not only important for getting accepted, but for doing well! How do you know you will like economic research if you have never done it?

[Gecko]

Research experience can take many different forms, such as a note written with a Professor (even term papers during courses) other than through a full RA stint :)

[shadowprice]

I spoke directly to the head of admission of a top-20 school a few weeks ago at a fly-out, and he told me that they consider research experience as an either positive or neutral sign, depending on how active your role is. If you take a collaborating role as an RA and your letter writer can say so, then it is a positive sign. If instead you simply program what your boss tells you to, then it will not add much. So my take is research experience can be beneficial if you use it as an opportunity to make major contributions to the research you are working on. Doing well in hard classes, on the other hand, will send an unambiguously positive signal.