Non-Traditional Applicant (Older, Underrepresented Groups, Diversity...) Suggestions

[rsaylors]

My PhD university choices are limited due to the age and health of both of our parents, so moving across the U.S. is not a real possibility.

So this is a very big problem.

 

 

You do NOT stay where you got your Ph.D. No one gets a job at the university they graduated from and many people end-up 'across' the US as you put it.

 

If what you want to do is teach, then you should get an MBA and make sure that you take electives in OB/HR; with six management courses at the graduate level you can teach at a CC.

 

If you want to be a researcher then you are going to need a more serious commitment than "what is within a six hour commute". (unless you live in a central nexus of many low-end schools within 6ish hours; such as San-Antonio)

 

Maybe I misunderstand what you mean here; maybe you mean that while Juno is out: going from Indianapolis to Milwaukee isn't such a big deal. These schools have an OB focus and are within your GMAT grasp:

 

Boston College

Louisiana State

Texas at San Antonio

Kent State University

Wisconsin-Milwaukee

Florida, Tallahassee

Mississippi, U of

Kansas, Lawrence

Florida Atlantic University

[rad1991]

From a Marketing standpoint the U of T survey is not that far off base but of course that will not be my only source of information. Thanks

[oldlady]

So this is a very big problem.

 

If you want to be a researcher then you are going to need a more serious commitment than "what is within a six hour commute". (unless you live in a central nexus of many low-end schools within 6ish hours; such as San-Antonio)

 

FWIW, I had a different experience. At 42, I looked closely at the six schools that were within a 90-minute commute. I eliminated the program that did not offer full funding, the commutes that would make my life miserable, and the programs that were geared towards young turks (a group I aged out of some time ago). I ended up applying to two schools within my area and got into the less competitive one. There are several older students in my cohort, and we all had similar application experiences.

 

My first semester was killer. I probably worked harder in my MBA program because I had less experience then -- I work much smarter now. But we were assigned six classes in the first semester plus 15 RA hours per week, and it was ridiculous. Got through it, but retained little of certain courses. Such is the nature of the beast...

 

However, I met a lot of really nice, non-competitive people, which is making the experience really pleasant. Socially, my age has been a non-issue.

[charlesr]

I was in a similar position 12 years ago. I'll tell you my story. I entered an economics PhD program at age 38 after a business career. I was geographically constrained and chose a program 1.25 hours away. There were two programs within 2 hours and another 3-5 within 4 hours. It was a low ranked or unranked program. If this were the Econ Job Rumors board I am definitely a "Low Ranked Monkey." I was one of the top students in the program. Had I been younger and mobile I am pretty certain I could have gotten into a top 20-50 program.

 

I did very well in the program but worked my butt off. Think 60+ hours a week for the first two years. For those two years I rented an apartment on campus and stayed there during the week. I could not have done the commute daily. I went there Monday AM and returned home Thursday or Friday. You won't make it through without an understanding spouse; mine is also an academic who had been through this. We have no kids. After I finished classes I lived at home and went to campus 2-3 days/week. It was doable but not ideal. I would have gotten more out of the program had I been there full time. I finished in about the median time (5.5 years).

 

It took 3 years of adjuncting and one-year positions, but I was finally able to get a tenure-track position locally. It's an undergraduate only-branch of a state school. Again, had I been mobile I probably could have done better and found a position more quickly. I am happy with how things have worked out but you need to be aware of the realities before you embark on this.

 

As I said, a PhD is intense. You need a supportive family. You will face age discrimination in applying for programs and in applying for jobs. I think you can safely forget about positions at top-ranked, research-intensive universities, unless it's a non-Tenure Track teaching position like a Clinical Professor. In all likelihood, you will not be able to get a tenure-track job in an institution as good as the one where you get your PhD. This is true for everybody. If you stay in academia, like me, you will most likely get a job in a teaching institution. You will teach 3-4 courses per semester (possibly 5-6 if it's a community college) and have little expectation of or time for research. Based on current salaries you can expect to earn somewhere between $50 and $100 thousand per year for a 9-month tenure-track position.

 

I hope this story helps and let me know if you have any more questions. Good luck.

[GrannySmith]

I was in a similar position 12 years ago. I'll tell you my story. I entered an economics PhD program at age 38 after a business career. I was geographically constrained and chose a program 1.25 hours away. There were two programs within 2 hours and another 3-5 within 4 hours. It was a low ranked or unranked program. If this were the Econ Job Rumors board I am definitely a "Low Ranked Monkey." I was one of the top students in the program. Had I been younger and mobile I am pretty certain I could have gotten into a top 20-50 program.

 

I did very well in the program but worked my butt off. Think 60+ hours a week for the first two years. For those two years I rented an apartment on campus and stayed there during the week. I could not have done the commute daily. I went there Monday AM and returned home Thursday or Friday. You won't make it through without an understanding spouse; mine is also an academic who had been through this. We have no kids. After I finished classes I lived at home and went to campus 2-3 days/week. It was doable but not ideal. I would have gotten more out of the program had I been there full time. I finished in about the median time (5.5 years).

 

It took 3 years of adjuncting and one-year positions, but I was finally able to get a tenure-track position locally. It's an undergraduate only-branch of a state school. Again, had I been mobile I probably could have done better and found a position more quickly. I am happy with how things have worked out but you need to be aware of the realities before you embark on this.

 

As I said, a PhD is intense. You need a supportive family. You will face age discrimination in applying for programs and in applying for jobs. I think you can safely forget about positions at top-ranked, research-intensive universities, unless it's a non-Tenure Track teaching position like a Clinical Professor. In all likelihood, you will not be able to get a tenure-track job in an institution as good as the one where you get your PhD. This is true for everybody. If you stay in academia, like me, you will most likely get a job in a teaching institution. You will teach 3-4 courses per semester (possibly 5-6 if it's a community college) and have little expectation of or time for research. Based on current salaries you can expect to earn somewhere between $50 and $100 thousand per year for a 9-month tenure-track position.

 

I hope this story helps and let me know if you have any more questions. Good luck.

 

To CharlesR, You posted a very pessimistic view, although I do believe that it may be a realistic prospect, I am not entirely sure that it is true for everyone. It seems that in your case your age and geographical constraint made you choose a low-ranked school, which may not have taught you sufficient research skills to get a research position at a higher ranked academic institution. However, a PhD should still be helpful in doing research outside academia - which would pay much better than the salary range you quoted and - depending on one's personal interests - it could be more interesting as well. I guess geographic constraints may be binding though...

[charlesr]

Granny, I did not intend to come across as bitter, just realistic. I did not mean to imply that I am dissatisfied with my choices. On the contrary, I am quite happy.

 

Of course a PhD is useful in non-academic settings, which would pay more than academia. But I'll stand by my salary range, assuming he gets into a mid-to-low range PhD program and ends up teaching at a non-PhD granting university.

[rsaylors]

To CharlesR, You posted a very pessimistic view, although I do believe that it may be a realistic prospect, I am not entirely sure that it is true for everyone. It seems that in your case your age and geographical constraint made you choose a low-ranked school, which may not have taught you sufficient research skills to get a research position at a higher ranked academic institution. However, a PhD should still be helpful in doing research outside academia - which would pay much better than the salary range you quoted and - depending on one's personal interests - it could be more interesting as well. I guess geographic constraints may be binding though...

To be honest I thought the post in question was a bit optimistic!

 

Many try this and don't do nearly as well.

 

A PhD is for training you to be a university researcher, the school has failed in it's mission if you are not a tenure track professor at an AACSB accredited institution when you get out.

[charlesr]

To be honest I thought the post in question was a bit optimistic!

A PhD is for training you to be a university researcher, the school has failed in it's mission if you are not a tenure track professor at an AACSB accredited institution when you get out.

 

I strongly disagree with this statement. A PhD trains you to research; maybe in academia, maybe elsewhere. Lots of PhDs do not teach at AACSB accredited institutions. (I am at one, by the way.)

 

However, I do agree with you that the original question was optimistic and the poster did not seem very familiar with higher ed.

[TraderJoe]

I was in a similar position 12 years ago. I'll tell you my story. I entered an economics PhD program at age 38 after a business career. I was geographically constrained and chose a program 1.25 hours away. There were two programs within 2 hours and another 3-5 within 4 hours. It was a low ranked or unranked program. If this were the Econ Job Rumors board I am definitely a "Low Ranked Monkey." I was one of the top students in the program. Had I been younger and mobile I am pretty certain I could have gotten into a top 20-50 program.

 

I did very well in the program but worked my butt off. Think 60+ hours a week for the first two years. For those two years I rented an apartment on campus and stayed there during the week. I could not have done the commute daily. I went there Monday AM and returned home Thursday or Friday. You won't make it through without an understanding spouse; mine is also an academic who had been through this. We have no kids. After I finished classes I lived at home and went to campus 2-3 days/week. It was doable but not ideal. I would have gotten more out of the program had I been there full time. I finished in about the median time (5.5 years).

 

It took 3 years of adjuncting and one-year positions, but I was finally able to get a tenure-track position locally. It's an undergraduate only-branch of a state school. Again, had I been mobile I probably could have done better and found a position more quickly. I am happy with how things have worked out but you need to be aware of the realities before you embark on this.

 

As I said, a PhD is intense. You need a supportive family. You will face age discrimination in applying for programs and in applying for jobs. I think you can safely forget about positions at top-ranked, research-intensive universities, unless it's a non-Tenure Track teaching position like a Clinical Professor. In all likelihood, you will not be able to get a tenure-track job in an institution as good as the one where you get your PhD. This is true for everybody. If you stay in academia, like me, you will most likely get a job in a teaching institution. You will teach 3-4 courses per semester (possibly 5-6 if it's a community college) and have little expectation of or time for research. Based on current salaries you can expect to earn somewhere between $50 and $100 thousand per year for a 9-month tenure-track position.

 

I hope this story helps and let me know if you have any more questions. Good luck.

 

I think that this is a very realistic view of what actually happens to the older PhD students. There is an well-concealed undercurrent of age discrimination in recruiting in the top research business programs. They are afraid that if they recruit someone over 45 years old, that person is essentially looking for a comfortable retirement position rather than building up their research record by publishing in the top journals. You could probably increase your salary by $50K if you took a position in the Finance department instead of the Economics department. All it needs are a few publications in Financial Economics journals. The Finance departments anyway have 60% of faculty members who have PhD in Economics and not in Finance.

[haread]

Wanted to make sure people could find this in the future. This appears to be the best place to put it. Haread

Minority B-School Faculty Growing—Slowly

 

 

From Businessweek

Minority B-School Faculty Growing—Slowly - BusinessWeek

 

The Ivory Tower January 27, 2011, 4:40PM EST

 

Minority B-School Faculty Growing—Slowly

 

The number of underrepresented minorities on U.S. business school faculties is up, but the PhD Project, which advocates diversity, says it's not nearly enough

 

By

Francesca Di Meglio

(Updates with total number of minority faculty at Texas A&M Mays Business School.)

 

American business schools, much like American businesses, have some catching up to do when it comes to minority hiring.

Stymied by a lack of minorities in the PhD pipeline and growing competition for minority faculty, progress in hiring African American, Hispanic American, and Native American faculty at U.S. B-schools has been slow. Bernard J. Milano, president of the PhD Project, an organization based in Montvale, N.J., that aims to increase the diversity of corporate America by increasing the diversity of business school faculty, says just 3.5 percent of B-school faculty and administrators come from such underrepresented minority groups. "When you think about the changing demographics of this country," Milano says, "that's tragic."

 

 

Since 1994, when the PhD Project launched, the number of underrepresented minorities—excluding Asian Americans—at U.S. business schools has more than tripled, from 294 to 1,061 in 2010. The number of underrepresented

minority doctoral students

grew from fewer than 175 to 385 over the same period, according to the PhD Project.

 

 

For B-schools, the lack of minorities among the faculty is a real problem, making it difficult to recruit

minority students

and to satisfy corporate recruiters seeking minority MBA talent."We like to be reflective of the world we live in," says Sachin Gupta, associate dean for academic affairs and professor of marketing at Cornell University's

Johnson Graduate School of Management

(

Johnson Full-Time MBA Profile

). "We want the community here to reflect diversity in the real world. This is important because it's what constituents—from students to recruiters—want."

Asians Well-Represented

 

At many schools, minority representation in the faculty ranks appears far more robust when all minorities, including Asians, are considered. For example, at the University of Southern California's

Marshall School of Business

(

Marshall Full-Time MBA Profile

), 27 percent of the 222 faculty members are minorities.Minorities represent 24 percent of the 96 faculty members at the Johnson School and 22 percent of 187 faculty members at the University of Michigan's

Ross School of Business

(

Ross Full-Time MBA Profile

), according to data supplied by the schools. However, underrepresented minorities, excluding Asians, account for just 2.7 percent of the faculty at Marshall, 3.1 percent at Johnson, and 3.7 percent at Ross.

 

 

The greatest challenge for business schools, says Gupta, is the small supply of minorities with PhDs to hire, when the demand among the 1,600 business schools in the U.S. is so great. "The availability of well-trained, credentialed [underrepresented minority] faculty has grown over the years but remains small," says Gupta. "We're competing with schools for a small number of faculty."

 

 

Most top business schools have asked faculty search committees to broaden their searches, and many of them turn to organizations such as the PhD Project for help in finding qualified minority candidates for openings. At the Johnson School, search committees sometimes get extra money to allow them to broaden the search for minority candidates. Still, business schools say hiring decisions aren't made based on race, creed, ethnicity, or gender alone. "I don't think we'll ever be in a position where we'd hire just to improve stats," says John Matsusaka, vice-dean for faculty and academic affairs at Marshall. "We use the numbers, but we won't be driven by the numbers."

Academia as Career Option

 

One reason the minority PhD pipeline is as dry as it is: Undergraduates are not being shown the benefits of pursuing a business doctorate and a career in academia, says Jerry Strawser, dean at Texas A&M's

Mays Business School

(

Mays Full-Time MBA Profile

), where six of the 41 minority faculty, out of 186 total, come from underrepresented groups. Milano says the case can be made persuasively with information on work-life balance and salaries enjoyed by business faculty.

Opening up the minds of minorities to the possibilities of business degrees and showing them that the business world welcomes them are steps in the right direction, says Milano. "How many minorities have relatives who are corporate executives? What is their personal experience with business?" he asks. "They wonder, 'How do I make my mark in a world dominated by white people?' "

 

 

Another key to making progress, say business school administrators, is providing mentoring and networking opportunities for all faculty. Strawser suggests supporting faculty organizations for minorities and other underrepresented groups that bring together professors from the wider university and not just the business school.

 

 

Having support in place for minority faculty members is also necessary to retain them once a school has hired them. Finding mentors is especially important for minority faculty, who face specific challenges, says Nandini Rajagopalan, a chair in strategic entrepreneurship at Marshall. Many of them are overwhelmed by questions from minority students, who often feel a kinship with minority faculty, and they may feel like outsiders if there are few professors like them. Mainly, says Rajagopalan, they must get help in securing tenure, which requires hard work and a cultivation of talent on the part of the school, regardless of whether one is part of a minority group.

Few Hold Top Deanships

 

Minorities, like any other group, want proof they will be able to influence the institutions at which they work. With few underrepresented minorities holding deanships at top business schools—New York University's

Stern School of Business

(

Stern Full-Time MBA Profile

) is the only one among Bloomberg Businessweek's

top 30 U.S.programs

—that is a challenge, says Milano. The PhD Project recently launched the Achieving Higher Education Administration Diversity (AHEAD) program, which is intended to encourage tenured minority faculty to think about moving into administration.

In the meantime, some business schools, such as Marshall, see diversity as including the recruitment of professors from other nations and ethnic groups, as well as underrepresented minorities in the U.S., says Rajagopalan. With the U.S. facing more competition from other parts of the world, including the emerging economic powers of China and India, business schools must step up their efforts to diversify their communities and especially their faculty, she adds.

"U.S. universities have no choice but to make diversity a part of their strategy," says Rajagopalan. "It's crucial to their survival."

 

 

Di Meglio

is a reporter for Businessweek.com in Fort Lee, N.J.

[TooOld]

Well, this old guy (almost 40) got his first acceptance today. I can't say where, because it is unofficial and I was asked not to, although the email was from the director of admissions so I think its official enough. I can say it is a middle of the road finance program at a major research institution. The best part is that it wasn't even my safety school.

 

I was unlucky in the respect that there is only one program that would be considered close enough for me to stay where I'm at. However, even though I have a wife and three kids, my family is okay with moving. We don't really have strong ties here. That made it easier.

[Piparoo]

Well, this old guy (almost 40) got his first acceptance today. I can't say where, because it is unofficial and I was asked not to, although the email was from the director of admissions so I think its official enough. I can say it is a middle of the road finance program at a major research institution. The best part is that it wasn't even my safety school.

 

My experience as well. I'll be 37 in the fall and have already had an admit (in OB) from adcom and feel really positive about the interviews I've had with the other two schools I applied to.

Only one faculty member asked "Why do you want to do a PhD now?" and I was already well prepared for that question.

[bellcurve]

All of you old guys/gals here,

 

Since you guys been through the exprience of your application process, let me ask you this "how much of ranking that you think you had to give up to compensate for your age?" Is it from T25 to T75 or something of 50 or is it more like 10/15? Did you feel during the process that you would have gotten into the way better school had you been a younger candidate?

[rsaylors]

^none^

 

It is an idiosyncratic function of the organization, not a negative weight in a regression equation.

[rose123]

edited Edited June 18, 2012 by rose123

[rsaylors]

Hello All,

 

I am an Indian 37 yr old female with a background in Engineering ( within top50 eng schools of India) and an MBA (again top 50 of india..) ..have worked in govt,non profits and mgmt consulting for 10 years now and now wish to go back to school..

 

a) which are best schools in europe and uk for phd in strategy ....have always been intrested in it

 

b) what exactly is the difference between letter of intent / motivation and an SoP? how would this profile be evaluated ...

 

thanks in advance

 

rose

 

Hi Rose; you should start a new thread with your profile.

[bellcurve]

Thank you rsaylors for the response.

 

Sorry for bumping old thread, but I am really curious. So, here is my question again:

 

All of you old guys/gals here,

 

Since you guys been through the exprience of your application process, let me ask you this "how much of ranking that you think you had to give up to compensate for your age?" Is it from T25 to T75 or something of 50 or is it more like 10/15? Did you feel during the process that you would have gotten into the way better school had you been a younger candidate?