Non-Traditional Applicant (Older, Underrepresented Groups, Diversity...) Suggestions

[hedgie58]

Burgerking,

 

I think cumulative I will only have a 3.1 but my last 70-100 hours will be say 3.7-4.0. Would that still be OK? or is that not enough.

 

Also in general will the Master's add that much to the app? If so in what field?

 

Thanks for your help.

[BurgerKing]

Hedgie58,

 

I would think 3.1 undergrad cumulative is a bit low for a business PhD. I also think that a master's degree

with a strong GPA would be helpful. For finance PhD, I would say finance/economics/accounting master's

would be relevant.

 

Again, I want to reiterate that I know little outside my narrow field (accounting).

 

Perhaps you better post you full profile here (of course you don't need to disclose particulars like

the names of the universities you attended), including your education, work history, age, and

other factors you consider important, so more experienced people can give you a good advice.

 

Thanks

[oldlady]

This is for the older applicants: The Talents of a Middle-Aged Brain - Well Blog - NYTimes.com. :)

[haread]

Great article. Thanks for sharing!

 

Haread

[haread]

Much of the information one can find on pursuing graduate education is targeted at “Mainstream” applicants more than non-traditional ones.

 

Still there are many good books out there that describe in detail how to set your self apart from other applicants. Although these would be applicable to anyone, they focus on key things to consider that many applicants (and students) overlook

 

These books also help you think of the application process more strategically.

 

All are available in places such as Amazon.com, BarnesandNoble.com, your local library and other online retailers.

 

Whether you are starting early or at the last minute these books provide valuable information that is not easily available elsewhere

 

**** (MUST HAVE) Getting What You Came For,

The Smart Students Guide To Earning A Master’s or Ph.D.

Peters, Robert L.; (1997)

 

Solid overview of the entire process from admissions, to comprehensive exams and dissertation.

 

 

**** (MUST HAVE) Graduate Admissions Essays;

Write Your Way Into The Graduate School of Your Choice

Asher, Donald P.; (2008)

 

The “bible” for writing solid admissions essays. Numerous examples with a key focus on what to do, in order to set your essay apart.

 

*** (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED) Graduate School

Winning Strategies For Getting In With Or Without Excellent Grades

Mumby, Dave G.; (2004)

 

A bit dated and due for a revision, but a solid explanation of the importance of making connections with potential advisors, recommenders and others who can help you in the process, and other steps you can use to overcome limitations in your academic background.

 

* (Nice To Have) Get Into Graduate School

A Strategic Approach For Master’s And Doctoral Candidates

Kaplan Publishing, Third Edition; (2008)

 

Although I ordered the Kaplan book, I actually didn’t do more than skim it, as the other ones proved more than adequate. I added it to the list for the purpose of completeness.

 

If you know of any other good resource materials or books that would be helpful to non-traditional applicants, please add them and let others know!

 

Haread

[cosmokramer]

Thanks Haread for the list. However, I would caution others from going out and buying all these books in one go :) In particular, the Business PhDs market is a rather small one, and general PhD application advice (i.e. that which applies to a number of disciplines including Physics/Chemistry) tends to be rather stale and uninspiring. This forum is your best bet for customized and quick guidance :)

[haread]

Cosmo, thanks for the note.

 

I agree that for targeted information, this is a great place to find it. I disagree however that the board provides all the information that non-traditional applicants will need.

 

I started learning as much as I could here on the board and found that as good as the information was, it was incomplete. There are many other things that one could (and possibly should) do as a non-traditional applicant to help strengthen their positioning.

 

The reason why I ended up reading the information in these books was to gain additional perspective. It may not have been as specifically targeted to business, but it is extremely valuable. Especially these days when applications are on the rise.

 

I will say however that for discipline specific information i.e. finance, accounting, marketing, etc. this list is probably your best bet.

 

For beating the odds and putting things in your favor? There is alot more to do.

 

Cheers!

 

Haread

[PhDragonfly]

Haread, thanks for this post.

 

I am 40 and entering a business Ph.D. program this fall. Prior to entering, I have worked at two large international companies and obtained a lot of experience in my field. While my career in industry has been rewarding, I am choosing to pursue a career in academia because I like the philanthropic side of being a researcher and teacher. It's not all about the money and prestige!

 

For me, I found that getting into a Ph.D. program required establishing a personal connection with the professors in my department at the university I am attending. That may be true for any candidate regardless of age :).

[donquijote]

Haread, thanks for this post.

 

I am 40 and entering a business Ph.D. program this fall. Prior to entering, I have worked at two large international companies and obtained a lot of experience in my field. While my career in industry has been rewarding, I am choosing to pursue a career in academia because I like the philanthropic side of being a researcher and teacher. It's not all about the money and prestige!

 

For me, I found that getting into a Ph.D. program required establishing a personal connection with the professors in my department at the university I am attending. That may be true for any candidate regardless of age :).

 

All,

 

I am about to turn 42 this year and have worked for several banks and investment houses for the last 20 years in a variety of functions (Trading, Risk Management, Accounting). My bachelors degree in finance is from Stern ( Major 3.7, Overall 3.5) and I am interested in applying for a finance p.h.d anywhere in the world. Any recommendations ? Ultimately, my goal is to teach somewhere on the West Coast of the United Sates.:hmm:

[haread]

I mentioned in an earlier post the potential value of applying as early as possible.

 

At the time however I forgot to mention one of the key reasons to apply early, potential funding.

 

Every case is different, however in the case of at least two programs that I applied to early, they identified potential fellowships that I was a good candidate for and encouraged me to apply for them.

 

In both cases, these were fellowships that I was unaware of, whose deadlines were earlier than the final deadlines for the schools.

 

There are numerous fellowships available, and the criteria can vary. One fellowship I was nominated for was for students who had overcome considerable adversity in their lives, while the other fellowship was to promote diversity in the graduate student community. I should add the latter fellowship did not limit the definition of diversity and was open to all who chose to apply.

 

The other reason why this can be a great strategy is that if external funding can be identified, it takes the pressure off of the department as your seat in the program is not paid for with departmental funds, freeing the money up for other students.

 

In addition to monthly stipends, some fellowships have additional money for books, conference participation and travel.

 

Haread

[haread]

PhDragonfly and Donquijote, thanks for chiming in!

 

It's nice to see that there are more and more of us with work experience going back to school.

 

Donquijote: If you are still in touch with some of the Stern faculty I would reach out to them to get their perspective on good places to apply. They may be able to give you a good steer. Programs vary, and culture and fit are important since you will be there for quite some times. Many schools skew younger in their Ph.D. cohorts, while others skew older. In my case although one of the older people in the program I am not the oldest.

 

Another thing you can do if you have the time is figure out the upcoming locations of the key Financial conferences for academics and go and attend some. 1) It will give you the chance to network with current students and faculty; 2) it will familiarize you with key research topics in the field; and 3) it will make for compelling information to include in your essays.

 

If there are certain schools on the west coast that you are interested in, take a look at the current faculty listed on their websites and see what schools they professors went to. Academia is a small world and certain schools feed each other.

 

Hope it helps and good luck!

 

Haread

[ProcessZ]

PhDragonfly,

 

I have similiar background. How was your test score and grades?

 

Did you apply to many schools?

 

 

Haread, thanks for this post.

 

I am 40 and entering a business Ph.D. program this fall. Prior to entering, I have worked at two large international companies and obtained a lot of experience in my field. While my career in industry has been rewarding, I am choosing to pursue a career in academia because I like the philanthropic side of being a researcher and teacher. It's not all about the money and prestige!

 

For me, I found that getting into a Ph.D. program required establishing a personal connection with the professors in my department at the university I am attending. That may be true for any candidate regardless of age :).

[gwendoline]

This is no doubt a great encouragement for me.

[rad1991]

Haread,

Just curious about some of the other schools you applied to since I will begin the process in 2011. One of my old professors from my MBA program suggested I do the same...cast a wide net. It seems like Tier 1 schools are not receptive to older applicants that are now mid career and want to teach and do research. Has this been your experience?

[haread]

@Rad1991

 

At the end of the day I applied to 28 programs, not so hard once you get the hang of it. The biggest challenge was getting letters of recommendations. Luckily I found 6 people willing to right for me and split them up.

 

I applied to a broad cross-section of schools based on my interests, and did contact a few schools where it made sense. I ended up receiving interest from 5 programs (so my ratio was 1:6) received offers from three and declined the other two (though I would have likely received offers). You will get in somewhere, however their is a lot of randomness in decisions. Places I was sure would consider me turned me down, yet I am at a program that is well ranked.

 

Keep in mind how you view a top program from the outside (MBA rankings) and how scholars view a top program (publishing and productivity) are two different things. MBA rankings are not a good proxy for PhD programs, as there are other variables in play.

 

You want to go somewhere that has a productive faculty that will teach you how to get published.

 

Luckily my department skews older, we have many people in their thirties, forties and even someone over 50, as well as many people in their twenties, so it depends.

 

Bottomline if you learn how to publish, and become very productive, it opens doors and you can write your own ticket.

 

Good luck!

 

Haread

[rad1991]

Thanks Haread. 28 schools is a LOT! I already have 3 professors from my b-school willing to write letters of recommendation. I just need to decide which schools to apply. I have reviewed the UT Dallas research ranking site as a tool to understand which faculty and schools are highly published. Thanks again.

[ivy2011phd]

Awesome! Noted and documented

[phdhope]

I would strongly urge you NOT to use the UT Dallas research ranking site as a tool to identify which schools to apply. This advice is particularly emphasized if you are considering accounting. The rankings simply are not reflective of the true order. (I mean UT-Dallas and Minnesota over places like Illinois?!?!) No one in accounting would agree with that. Not even UT-Dallas or Minnesota. Of course maybe you are using the rankings to look up journal articles written by certain schools, which is fine.

[rsaylors]

If you go here:

Rankings by Journals - UTD Top 100 Business School Research Rankings™ - School of Management @ UT Dallas

 

you can chose the journals that you find related to what you like... so lets say "the accounting review" and "Journal of Accounting and Economics"

 

That would land you with UTD now being ranked 28th.

 

 

I think that judicious use of the web page can offer some insight.

[phdhope]

Of course you can use just the TAR, JAR, JAE. That still doesn't solve the problem. (though it helps it) Where is Auditing, Contemporary Accounting Review, AOS, JATA? To say that only publications in TAR, JAR, and JAE matter is kinda of ridiculous. Additionally, it still doesn't tell you which school is the best school for sub-topics (like tax). Finally, the school gets credited with the publication even if the professor/phd student leaves the school. So when top researchers leave a school for another, their publication record count stays at their old institution. This is probably one of the most problematic issues with the rankings because while professors don't move often, many move once.

 

In short, while the UTD rankings give you something of an idea, consulting your professors, talking to other academics, and searching for better rankings would be strongly advised.

[rsaylors]

In short, while the UTD rankings give you something of an idea, consulting your professors, talking to other academics, and searching for better rankings would be strongly advised.

I agree.

[bryanhur]

Hi Everyone.

 

I'd like to throw out my situation and see what comes back.

 

First, I'm amazed at how many of us are 42: I like many of you am, too. I earned an AS in Computer Information Systems in 1991 when programmers were needed. I worked up to a Systems Analyst, and I have now owned my own business for around 20 years with my own employees, etc. I have done analysis for clients that has taken quite a bit of time and effort, and I have written systems that have taken 1800 hrs a year for four years to complete. I decided it was time for a career change (since I have actually programmed professionally since 1985) and decided I would like to do more business consulting. I published my first book in 2008, and have done a handful of business consulting gigs for clients that have dealt with management training, employee engagement and social engineering in the workplace. I'm scheduled to another class with 60 managers next month.

 

All that said, my goal three years ago became to work into a teaching and research career in the field of Business Organizational Behavior. I have a family: a wife of 17 years, a 12 year old daughter and a 14 year old son. My PhD university choices are limited due to the age and health of both of our parents, so moving across the U.S. is not a real possibility.

 

Will PhD studies in this business field be much more than going to school full time as an undergraduate, maintaining a family and a business? Or will it be substantially more? Is the research required much more than that required in learning new organizational and data systems? How much funding should one strive for (in our case, we have no debt and are a cash-basis family)? Will I have difficulties getting funding if I have no minority background or current financial lack?

 

Any advice and/or information you can help me with is appreciated.

 

Thanks all.

[nosaed]

Hi Bryanhur. Welcome to the discussion.

Having been through a similar career path, I would say that the rigor of a PhD program from a time constraint perspective is going to be quite similar to being a full-time student, a small-business owner, bread-winner and an author. In fact, it is all of those things (combined) and more; add to that your normal life, of course.

Given your stated goals, have you considered an MBA or a DBA (especially if you just want that respected “Dr.” next to your name – I do realize the value of that in the consulting/publishing world)? Have you looked into schools that allow for part-time study (for instance, GA-State offers an Executive DBA)?

Yes, it’s going to be tougher. It’s specifically designed to push the boundaries of anything you’ve ever done. If you’ve not read any of the research literature, do so now. System architecture and design are challenging but doctoral work is in a completely different ballpark. Most programs are funded. The amount will vary by program and by student.

Share some more of your research interests, goals and UGrad GPA, etc. and I’m sure the members of this board will gladly provide you with target schools and advice.

[bryanhur]

I graduated Summa Cum Laude (4.0) with a degree in Technology Management; my AS was a 4.0; I did both degrees in three semesters each, making my BS a 3 year job. I tested a 640 on my GMAT (perfect on analytical writing assessment, 81% on English proficiency and 61% on quantitative); I've been quoted a few places, but not published other than the book in 2008; most of my background is professional. I have a footprint with my book and training materials in the Central African Republic where we are working with indigenous trainers to modify the internal management of their business and government structure (the book has been translated into French). I work professionally doing management training and engineering (my current booking is a multi-thousand dollar job for training 60 managers for a major international corporation). I would love to research the transitions between the current internet generation and the outgoing baby-boomer and gen-x management styles, dealing with all the resistances that happen between the incoming and outgoing generation. I would also love to learn how to marry the social buy-in of successful not-for-profits with the dependability of wage-earning employee bases. I have other interests but those are a couple.

 

Am I on the right track with what you are asking for? If not, let me know and I'll reply with whatever you all think would be helpful.

 

Thanks everyone.

Edited January 9, 2011 by bryanhur

[phdhope]

Good information. I think you might want to consider re-taking the GMAT. While there are schools that admit students with a 640, many schools say you must have a 650 to even apply and the averages for many schools is higher than that. I will have to appeal to the management folks of the forum to give some ideas of what schools might fit your interests.