Toefl Ibt

[Babak]

 

I don't mean to insult or criticize anyone but NABP should not be serious about setting score by holding these small group of panelists. There should be other criteria to set or adjust score requirement or even look for other tests to reduce criticism about monopoly. Setting score from panelists should be a starting point rather than the end.

 

Dear knok,

Once again, thanks for your effort. You have done so many excellent jobs, so far.

 

I see that you have gathered several articles in support of "Pharmacist Shortages", out-lined numerous reasons in prove of ETS unpractical method of testing, had a decent session with NABP for iBT (albeit, uncovered in details), and advocate right of international pharmacist in this forum as much as you can, now; what is the strategy and policy of IPHARM-US for the up-coming event?

Do IPHARM-US have a representative in this session to deliver the words and documents which are gathered, so far?

Is there any inquiry from IPHARM-US to NABP regarding of its delegates presentation in "Task Force for iBT Requirement Session"?

 

There is less than a month left, we cannot do anything after the session, when they made a decision without us.

What should we do?

[Trav]

Dear knok,

Once again, thanks for your effort. You have done so many excellent jobs, so far.

 

I see that you have gathered several articles in support of "Pharmacist Shortages", out-lined numerous reasons in prove of ETS unpractical method of testing, had a decent session with NABP for iBT (albeit, uncovered in details), and advocate right of international pharmacist in this forum as much as you can, now; what is the strategy and policy of IPHARM-US for the up-coming event?

Do IPHARM-US have a representative in this session to deliver the words and documents which are gathered, so far?

Is there any inquiry from IPHARM-US to NABP regarding of its delegates presentation in "Task Force for iBT Requirement Session"?

 

There is less than a month left, we cannot do anything after the session, when they made a decision without us.

What should we do?

 

Babak, you've introduced a very important idea that deserves to be seriously worked on. Thank you for that.

 

I do not think IPHARM-US has representation in the forthcoming NABP session. I believe we were not included in the logistics of this meeting, which means we may need to organize ourselves and raise funds to enable our representative(s) attend the meeting/session, if at all NABP's officials agree to have our representatives there. We are NABP's stakeholders, I don't think NABP will refuse to have our representatives share with them our experience with ETS's overall handling of the TOEFLiBT if we tell them in advance that all costs will be covered by IPHARM-US.

 

One question to everybody; Are we ready to contribute funds to enable one or two IPHARM-US representatives attend the meeting to represent all of us in case NABP says YES to our request?

[lara]

I am ready. I will contribute some money for that.

[fpgeetaker]

Hi,

Thanks a lot for your great effort. I am willing to contribute some money,too.

[amy6688]

Thanks for Knok and other people's time and effort. You did wonderful job for us.

I have been taking TOEFL for years in order to get 26 or 50. I will contribute money too.

[Rexa411]

Babak, you've introduced a very important idea that deserves to be seriously worked on. Thank you for that.

 

I do not think IPHARM-US has representation in the forthcoming NABP session. I believe we were not included in the logistics of this meeting, which means we may need to organize ourselves and raise funds to enable our representative(s) attend the meeting/session, if at all NABP's officials agree to have our representatives there. We are NABP's stakeholders, I don't think NABP will refuse to have our representatives share with them our experience with ETS's overall handling of the TOEFLiBT if we tell them in advance that all costs will be covered by IPHARM-US.

 

One question to everybody; Are we ready to contribute funds to enable one or two IPHARM-US representatives attend the meeting to represent all

of us in case NABP says YES to our request?

 

I don't have any experience with TOEFL test yet( in very soon). But, I have read many complaints from so many people they all seem to have the same issue with the test.

ETS could be called a world-class assessments organization where educational institutions, businesses, governments, countries and people like us from worldwide rely on.

Why the scores of the same person on difference time of tests never be the same? It's not compared with 2 but with 3-4-5-6 times.

And this issue also creates doubt for the answer for..Where is the standard?

Is the 26 in speaking is good enough for the guarantee on consumer safety or it is too good as they could give the speech as the US presidential candidates.

I think , we choose to take this challenge because we recognized ETS are the global leader, we believe in ETS'S social responsibility, equity, opportunity, and quality and we believe in ETS'S advance quality and equity in education. And we have no other choice there is only one for us.

And for us this is not the first tough test we have, to earn Pharmacy degree , we did not walk in easily to the Pharmacy school ,we passed the entrance examination to get the seat( 200 seats

 

I am totally agree with you guys, Trav and Babak,and because this involed 3 parties the ideal is if all ;ETS as a service provider,NABP the institution and IPharmUS as customer;can have a talk on the same table that would be perfect, but I do not know how to make that happen.

 

As I am on the same road to the same goal with IPharm US, I am too, ready to support that.

 

 

Cheers,:tup:

 

REX

[lara]

Well, we all blame ETS for everything, I don't understand why for sure. I think, they do score us crazy, very subjective, however, Nabp is the one who can change everything here in order to ease our lives. All they need to do, it just decrease the speaking requirement to 20 or 23 or whatever less then 26, or to take a total score like other universities do. A lot of pharmacy schools require a total score 70 to 90. The ETS doesn't care about it. If Nabp would required just 23-22 or total score of 80 or even 90-100, we all would pass it long time ago.

I think to change the exam to something else is not a good idea. I don't have

other english test centers close to me, even to my state, so it meens we have to spend a lot of money and time again to go to take the test somewhere far away from our home, what if it will be again high score requirement. Some of you will not agree with me, however it is my opinion.

Can somebody explain to me what is wrong with decreasing speaking score in TOEFL. I don't get it.

[knok]

I don't think that NABP will get rid of TOEFL iBT since there are many people like you guys who are willing to pay for ETS every month. Even though format, testing administration, and scoring process are the main problems that we keep complaining, you still want to pay for it. I know that someone already took iBT 30 times and passed with rescoring after the original score was 23. Is that what you want to continue?

 

For me, if there is only one test center, which is even located in the Philippines or Maxico, that offers a real life interview with quiet and professional test center, I will fly and take the test there. I am willing to pay $500 for one test, in one criterion, the name is not "ETS".

[lara]

Thank you for your answer.

I would do the same as you would do, however where is the garantee that we will get what we need,I mean the score requirement for Nabp.

By the way, I thought, Knok, you already passed your TOEFL test.

It is not about an English test, it is about the requirements, how you don't understand that.

What about FPGEE test? You think it was right for us, to have 6 hours test and being there from 8 am to 5 pm, being so cold sometimes and the next part of the test so hot. All tests are hard, however, we have to go through them.It is about passing score. Some pharmasists took the FPGEE 4-7 times and passed it any way.Can you imagine if the passing score on FPGEE would be 100 or 120 out of 150? Would we blame the conditions of the test, or monopoly, or what else? Thank God, it is a score of 75. The same thing with TOEFL, speaking part 26 out of 30 is way too high. What if they would required listening part score of 26 or 29, how many of us would pass that?

I do hope you, guys, agree with me. I do hope and believe that the truth will win in this situation and Nabp will understand that they were wrong with a score of 26. People need pharmacists. People from my work can't wait until I become a pharmacist, they need us so bad.

I am grateful for everything, Knok, you and other guys did for us, you are very-very helpful! God bless and helps all of us!

[Tseprep]

I was looking for this information:).

 

Here is the link

http://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/71943_web.pdf

 

It says on page 9 under native language:

 

English---> R:20 L:22 S:22 W:22

 

and on pages 10_11

 

United States R:19 L:22 S:22 W:21 :p

United Kingdom R:23 L:25 S:24 W:24 ;)

[emac]

We are so many right now in the same situation that if we stand together we would probably make the biggest scandal that ETS have faced ever. But, we as humble as we are, keep trusting in the honesty of NABP officials to bring back justice and fairness to FPGEC program. Before iBT the biggest obstacle in this running for FPGEC was the FPGEE, which is really proof our pharmacy background and the equivalency. Now is a shame that the biggest problem is a test of mere "English proficiency", or just the speaking section of that test.

 

Think about it. NABP, just one section of one test is affecting the lives and the families of thousands of FP that the only thing they are pursuing is to practice the profession they love in this country, for the good of this nation. Stop blaming public safety, here where I live must of the foreign graduates that are licensed took advantage of a requirement of 45 in the old TSE. They do not speak perfect English, but they have proven how good they are providing the service and keeping American pharmacies open 24 hours.

 

The proof is here in FL, also in Michigan, two states that before iBT never asked for 50 in TSE and never have a case as a result. I am sure that if those pharmacists already working for CVS or Walgreens are asked to take iBT they won't pass. What really matter is your pharmacy knowledge, NABP should never put the standard so high in an English test. I am a permanent resident and I do not have other place to go but to stay and live here, but I swear that if I become citizen, which I am very closed to, and still fighting with this unfair and discriminatory requirement, I am going to take this to every civil right court in US until I find justice.

 

That's another point that we can forward to NABP.

-

[PTS]

I received a lettere from NABP regarding my complaint. It is as folows:

 

We sympathize with you and your situation. As indicated in the FPGEC Bulletin, the TSE and Toefl or Toefl iBT must be completed by all foreign pharmacy graduates, even those who are native English speakers. There are no exceptions or waivers to these requirements. In regard to the issue you have experienced in your attempts to take the Toefl test, we urge you to contact ETS directly.

[vivyzeta]

Hello guys,

 

I am new of this thread and I want to share my experience as many of you.

 

I have been living in America for 7 years and it looks I do not know how to speak English since I got a score of 24 on TOEFL speaking.

 

Reading this thread makes me very concern; it seems very difficult to reach the score of 26, I read that ETS does not give this score so easily.

 

Let's hope that NABP will change the 26 score to one more feasible for all of us.

 

Vivy

[oktava]

I received a lettere from NABP regarding my complaint. It is as folows:

 

We sympathize with you and your situation. As indicated in the FPGEC Bulletin, the TSE and Toefl or Toefl iBT must be completed by all foreign pharmacy graduates, even those who are native English speakers. There are no exceptions or waivers to these requirements. In regard to the issue you have experienced in your attempts to take the Toefl test, we urge you to contact ETS directly.

PTS,

I am curious to whom you wrote at NABP and from whom the reply came (as in individual names), and have you made inquiries or complaints directly to ETS? If so, what was the outcome?

Keep fighting!!!

Oktava

[lara]

Hi, Vivy!

I think you have got a good score for your first time, like understand.

I really suggest to you to rescore it. Yes, it is hard to get a 26. However, for some people it is so easy, some of them got 26 and 27 from their first time, what makes me think about myself not good at all. It means I have to work on my speaking I don't know for how long yet.

Another thing, this is so bad because they judge us so subjective, it's like in art, somebody likes Picasso, somebody hates it, the same thing with us, somebody is impressed with our speaking, somebody just hates our accent and speaking. This is so unfair. I agree with emac. I bet people from Nabp wouldn't get 26 on speaking either because a lot of people talk very slow and need a lot of time to think before answering. Some Pharmacists from my work

start to answer questions like that:" Well... blah...in 5 sec. blah..."

And Nabp wants from us the highest score. It is rediculous. Or just listen to some doctors from foreign countries, my God, you can not understand what they are saying at all sometimes. We can talk about it a lot, but what or who will help us?

Sorry, I am kind of in stupid mood today, because each time after I am doing counceling for patients in hospital in their rooms about some medication like coumadin teaching or something else, they are saying how pretty is my accent and they understand every word I am saying. And here I am, can not pass the TOEFL. It is so depressing...

[oktava]

EMAC,

 

Many of us share your suffering.

 

It is clear that simply writing to either NABP, ETS or both results in pat form- letters defending 'their position'. Would all of us go further with the entities that REGULATES these discriminatory monopolistic entities?

 

You do not need to be a US Citizen to make waves. On an earlier post I suggested, and still do suggest, a complaint to the FTC (Federal Trade Commission) They are the biggest guns in fighting unfair business practices. They are Federal Attorneys that our taxes pay for and act as soon as they receive enough complaints to detect a pattern. (the pattern has been discussed enough!!). They are the ones that bust up monopolies and collusion. If all the posters on this site would just do this I am sure they would have enough to act on.

 

The number is 1-877-382-4357 toll free. You will speak with a human being and, with a complaint, will have taken a solid step towards a Federal investigation instead of bantering with ETS and NABP.

 

Spread the word.

[pkaluvala]

Thank you guys for this piece of valuable information that NABP has enlightened on reviewing the TOEFL iBT requirements for foreign pharmacits. Thanks. We will all do what all we can to push this scenario upto the table of NABP committe.

 

Good luck.

-

[hofstran]

Babak, you've introduced a very important idea that deserves to be seriously worked on. Thank you for that.

 

I do not think IPHARM-US has representation in the forthcoming NABP session. I believe we were not included in the logistics of this meeting, which means we may need to organize ourselves and raise funds to enable our representative(s) attend the meeting/session, if at all NABP's officials agree to have our representatives there. We are NABP's stakeholders, I don't think NABP will refuse to have our representatives share with them our experience with ETS's overall handling of the TOEFLiBT if we tell them in advance that all costs will be covered by IPHARM-US.

 

One question to everybody; Are we ready to contribute funds to enable one or two IPHARM-US representatives attend the meeting to represent all of us in case NABP says YES to our request?

I also want to contribute some money in our representation in october NABP session. I ask everybody to do the same. I just want you Trav or Knok to arrange things so those who live outside US as I am could transfer money through plastic card.

Another question, I send application to IPHARM-US at the end of May of this year. Should I receive some confirmation letter? Because I did not get any.

Thanks for your efforts, money, and time dedicated for our business.

[The Pharmacist]

Hi Guys

 

Its important that I-PHARM representatives participate in Task Force meeting.

The best idea as already mentioned is to open an account by Lead hands / Representatives and we will transfer the amount in it.

 

Everybody pls. support our representatives. They are investing their time and its our duty to support them all the time with all means.

 

Hope we will be successful. God willing

 

World is built on hope.

[PTS]

Hi oktava,

 

I wrote to Toefl iBT task force review committee and reply came from The FPGEC and not from individual. Also I wrote to ETS, but they gave me reply that complaint had forwarded to concern department. Still I haven't got any reply from them.

 

PTS,

I am curious to whom you wrote at NABP and from whom the reply came (as in individual names), and have you made inquiries or complaints directly to ETS? If so, what was the outcome?

Keep fighting!!!

Oktava

[angel12be]

Hi Knok. I live in Glendale, CA. I hope I can help. I am also a frustrated testtaker of the iBT.

[yashak]

Hi All,

 

I have been away for so long from this forum. Though I wasn't idle in contacting NABP, my congressman and other parties who can have passion to the plight of foreign pharmacy graduates.

 

I applaud the brainstorming ideas flowing in this forum. However, we need to come up with a united, focused and achievable objectives. Based on all the postings, it is clear that there is a serious problem with iBT TOFEL as a fair test to evaluate foreign pharmacy graduates ability to communicate in English with their patients, fellow pharmacists and other health care professionals. The question should be what we need to do? Gathering more problems doesn't make sense to me as the NABP has enough evidence if they really are ready to address the problem. In my opinion, I send them a letter that challenges the board to present if they have any data that shows the quality of health has been compromised by foreign pharmacy graduates for the very reason that they don't speak English langauge like the native speaker and I also challenge thme to present data that shows the total number of foreign pharmacy graduates who sat for iBT TOFEL since iBT TOFEL was put in place as a test to measure English proficiency and the number who passed and got their certificate. I am waiting for their response. Everyone must send them the same question and once we got the data, we can come up with a strategy to defend our rights and responsibilities. I truly believe that the number of candidates who pass iBT TOFEL, no matter after how many trial, is way low.

 

As we all know, NABP put a system to evaluate our educational background if we have enough knowledge of the profession. Most of us score way above 100 that shows how knowledgable we are on the subject matter. We are also very happy to go through the internship process to learn the pharmacy practice in this nation which make us to learn the culture and society. But to use English language proficiency test that is used by universities to evaluate students future success at universities as a barrier not to practice pharmacy isn't only unfair but also immoral. Those who preaches diversity don't want those professionals of the same profession from foreign countries to be members of the profession.

 

To sum it up, we need to work how to bring the silent majority who are trying iBT TOFEL multiple times in the hope of scoring the miracle score 26 to the association and pay at least 1/3rd of iBT TOFEL fee to strengthen the association. Instead of paying 150.00 every time they register for iBT TOFEL and score the same, they need to set up local chapters and discuss ways to challenge the NABP.

 

Those outside the country can play a role just by writing complaints to the NABP. As they pay more dollars to come here and take the FPGEE, they can tell all their compatriots just to stop filling the coffers of NABP until NABP addresses the problem about the path to internship.

 

Let us be serious and do more each of us than expecting others to do for us.

 

Yashak

[yashak]

Hi Angel12be,

 

I volunteered to be a representative of IPHARM-US for CA and tried to reach out at Yahoo FPGEE group forum and craigslsit, I haven't gotten any response from anyone. Anyway, try to post at yahoo FPGEE group forum and invite those who are interested to talk to you. I think you can form a local chapter of south California. I am in the north part of California in Alameda, CA. You can send me a private message.

[knok]

Thanks everybody for your contributions. I appreciate your time and effort.

 

For the best interest of all foreign pharmacists, some pieces of information are very sensitive and should not be posted publicly. To show respect to the board, NABP, we should let them work. We are hoping to contribute and help to provide services to the healthcare.

 

In conclusion, we have enough information that main problems are:

 

1. Accessibility of the TOEFL iBT – test takers must register at least 4 months ahead or more.

 

- The more options or tests foreign pharmacists can take, the better for American people since more pharmacists will be able to receive FPGEC certificate and provide services to public health.

 

2. Format of TOEFL iBT:

 

- Recording method that ETS is using is not a good indicator of real life communication. Communication is two way street. A real interview is a better method than recording system.

 

3. Test administration

 

- Noisy and disturbing environment is not a good indicator that ETS is giving a high standard for a test providing to healthcare workers who will work to protect public health.

 

4. Scoring system

 

– Rescoring and scoring errors question integrity and true goals of ETS as a monopoly of the test for foreign pharmacy graduates in this circumstance. Transparency and fairness of the test are questionable.

 

5. Scoring requirement by NABP and ETS, a score of 26. We question the integrity of ETS.

 

- In case that TOEFL iBT is the only test for foreign graduates, if NABP reduces the score requirement to 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, or 25, will ETS raise its standard again as it did in the Test of Spoken English? In 5 years, a score of 50 on TSE was raised from 75 percentile to 86 percentile. Will those scores be raised in the future?

 

6. NABP is currently using panelists. We assumed that no more than 50 panelists were used as samples for 300 million Americans. Is this method fair for all parties when stakeholders that pharmacists are dealing daily are patients in all levels of education and backgrounds?

 

- In score descriptive report that ETS reported, test takers who received a score of 20 on the speaking section and/or a total score of 90 (in four sections) can communicate. This report was sent to NABP in 2007.

 

As pharmacist shortage continues, high volume of prescriptions has put pressure on pharmacists. Speedy dispensing system may contribute to medication errors. Pharmacists need to do more in less time. Media bombards about medication errors which are public concern. Patient safety is the most important issue for healthcare professionals. Pharmacists might not have time to speak to patients as they wish. Why does the board want pharmacists to receive a high score in one test, a score of 26 on TOEFL iBT, when pharmacists might not have a chance to talk to patients at all in this crisis? Please think about it. :hmm:

 

Documentation is one kind of evidence. It is better to send your complaint and evidence to NABP, IPHARM, ETS and FTC.